I owned a couple of Nightclubs in Puerto Rico; I made my living plying drinks to tourists and locals alike. This was how I paid my employees and my business expenses. Would it have been right if my bartenders sold rum from their own bottle and cut me out of the equation? I think you would agree it would be wrong.
The flip side of the coin here in the Philippines the older cars I use to drive, the mechanics would come to my house and do the repairs and cut out the company they worked for. Okay the logic is that the company is going to charge you a high price for labor and pay the mechanic very little. So the mechanic makes extra money by working under the table.
This type of situation we run into all the time as we are living in the Philippines. But are we right to accept it? Saving money is usually a good thing, but doing it at the expense of others, is that right?
I’ve done it more times than I like to admit, and never had any problem with the quality of the work. Plus I can justify it to myself that Dodong’s company pays him peanuts and charges me a lot to boost their profits. But am I right? Or am I contributing to the corruption that I always complain about. Do I talk out of both sides of my mouth when it benefits me?
If I ask my wife about this dilemma, she looks at me as if I’m crazy and then I remember that she has been here her entire life and it’s always been that way.
My brother Bill was a carpenter and in the winter in Boston he’d be laid off until the weather improved. My father was a State of Massachusetts licensed construction engineer, licensed in all the trades. My brother Billy would put together a crew and go to Cape Cod in the winter and (Under the table) renovate people’s vacation homes. My father would come down towards the end of the job and check that all work was done to code and sign off on the city inspectors. It was all legal, but deep into a dark gray area. So I guess I am no stranger to the practice after all.
I went to the shop that sold me my generator, it needed to be serviced, but, because the mechanic had to come up to the mountain, I was told that the service charge was double because of the travel. I almost agreed when Mayang told them no and that we were leaving. As we left, I knew she had her reasons and she said; “Honey KO, the mechanic lives on the next street, I know his wife.” He dropped by the next Saturday and has been servicing my machine for the past 15 years. Tony and I drink beer together.
Ninety percent of the time I do the Sergeant Shultz of Hogan Heroes fame; “”I hear nothing, I see nothing, I know nothing!” That seems to work well for me. But that Catholic guilt does set in once in a while.
When my house was being built the engineer would show up every Friday to collect the money from me. He would pay the Foreman and drive away and that was the only time I saw him. I asked the Foreman if he would like to continue the work on my house and I would pay him the same amount I paid the “do nothing” engineer. He said he had never spoken to the engineer and yes he would do it. I fired the engineer and he said the crew would be going with him. Oh well that never happened.
But the question remains, how do you folks reading this feel about it and what do you do? Are we wrong?
Paul,
I look at it this way, if their employer was paying them a decent living wage, they would not have to look for side work. People are going to do what they have to do to feed their families. This type of thing is less common in the states because more people are making a living wage, and are afraid their employer will find out and fire them. I guess it all comes down to your gut. I would let a carpenter do side work on my home, but I would not go to a bar and let a bartender pour me drinks at half price from his personal bottle.
Joe Parisi;
As a former bar owner I thank you for that (lol) But I agree with your thinking about the under the table worker. I’ll bury my head in the sand and let my wife handle the transactions from now on. I know nothing………
Paul,
I have been in and out of the Philippines all my adult life. Over the years some things have changed and some have not. I find it hard to do a lot of the things I want too because I cannot find the material or someone to do it. I too have had car repairs done at Home by “Family Friends” He was happy to get the work (and the money) I was happy with the work and paid his fees willingly as the car dealer wanted 5 times as much. I guess it boils down to this. You can do things the “right way” all the time and be, well… taken to the cleaners most of the time or do thing the local way and in so doing help your fellow man out while helping yourself too. Just my opinion… As The saying goes… It Is What It Is… lol
SD Sutton;
It is what it is…. That sums it up better than anything I could come up with. I’m taking my car in tomorrow for its 10,000 Kilometre check to keep the warranty in effect. The cost is PNP 5,500.00, for the same work that I could have done at GoodYear Service Tec for less than PNP 2,000.00 But they have me over a barrel.
That they do, Paul. In the US, car stealerships extorting money from customers by holding the warranty over their heads was done away with quite some time ago. If you could document that the manufacturer’s suggested maintenance program was followed, your warranty claims could not be dismissed.
Not so over here. But, that is the life we chose! After all, the car dealership lobby must have some sway, based on how expensive it is to bring your own car over here!
Let me know when the windows start opening for a lunch get-together sometime when we’re down that way!
Doug Thompson;
When I bought my car last year I chucked the plastic hub caps and bought a nice set of rims, the dealership said that might void my warrantee. I checked with Mitsubishi Japan, and they had never heard of that.
I’m going this morning to fit my second set of augmented teeth, if they fit we are a go later in the month.
I see no problem with hiring the guys to do the work that the dealers want to overcharge you for. When I get back we can discuss the ethics of it at By the Sea Resort while consuming a bottle of Rum mixed with the By the Sea cokes.
Loren;
But we’ve never hid the bottle we bring, and I asked the manager to stock our rum and we’d buy it from him. He seems happy with the arrangement.
Dare I show a little of my bleeding liberal heart in a response? O.K., here goes. One way to look at this is that employers would not be hiring employees if the employers were not making a significant profit off of the services provided by employees. So, I am all for cutting out the middle man. On the other hand, I do have mixed feelings about avoiding taxes that pay for needed public services.
Jamie;
The tax angle was one aspect I’d not thought of, but since they (The Government) only collects trash in my purok every other Sunday and failed to show up this week……
If it bothers you, then you already know the right answer. Any other opinion is totally irrelevant….
Conveniently, I haven’t dealt with the exact issues you describe…but I expect I have to figure it out and decide which way to operate too.
Byron Watts;
I know how I am going to deal with it but I was still seeking the opinion of others to see how they handled the situation. Or was I seeking approval???
The company don’t own manual laborers nor do I think they have to sign anything that they cannot do work on the side. A bartender that works for you can get paid to bartend a party for his cousins friends wedding. No moral delema there.
Marc;
The bartender working a private gig is never going to be a problem, as long as they are not using my supplies to do it.
I have also ran a couple businesses here in the states. So here is my perspective.
When I was younger and worked for a large commercial woodwork company, as I made some money, I bought some woodworking machines as I could afford them and then did work on the side, after work and on weekends, and I was soon making far more by doing that than my weekly pay from my full time job. My foreman lived fairly close to me, and he knew what I was doing, in fact within a couple years I was hiring him on weekends to install things for me, he had no problems with what I was doing and even the bigshots that owned the company I worked for, had no problem with it, in fact they sometimes would sub contract smaller jobs that they didnt want to do, to me. Other guys in the shop also did jobs on the side , and some were allowed to use some of the large machines in the shop to do certain things after hours, and management was ok with it. Many times when things got slow in the company I worked for, they would cut back on hours, often times I had jobs to do, and would be able to put them to work for me. I reinvested the majority of the profits from my jobs, and tried to expand my business, if I could not pay cash for anything I wanted, then I didnt need it. Back in the 80’s when a lot of the commercial and residential building slowed or almost stopped, the company I had been working for folded and went under, mainly because they had built a 300,000sf. new ultra modern shop, and had borrowed millions of dollars, a few years before the slow down.
It was at that time I started my company. I never wanted to grow into a big company, as I had watched that, and didnt want to deal with all those kind of headaches, I had enough as a small company. I also let employees that worked for me, do work on the side, and let them use some of the machines after hours as long as it didnt interfere with things . Certain types of jobs that I didnt want to do I also would tell certain employees about, and if they were interested I would give them the name of the person wanting the job done, and let them work it all out between each other. Many times the customer coming to me to have a job done that I didnt want to do, was very happy that I would help them out by recommending one of my employees to do it, but I always made it clear that I was just trying to help them out by putting them together, and in no way was my company involved.
Bill S.
I read that with great interest as I like the way you looked at the situation. Plus keeping your business at a manageable size also made sense to me. You found the best within the situation.
I don’t have an ethical dilemma here because of how it happened. Your lovely wife happened to know that a person lived on the next street and you approached him. What he does on his off-time (and we can assume it is his off-time) is his business.
Now, if you had gone in to get something fixed and the employee there told you that he could do it cheaper under the table, I think that is a very different situation.
For me, it’s all in the approach. Who approached who?
Tom N
From what I’ve observed it is the worker who presents the under the table most of the time, I know I have never brought the subject up. The Generator Store was going to charge me double and send Tony home early to stop by my place on his way. My wife was 100% right, and the company was attempting to overcharge me.
I agree with Tom. What he says is a good and fair standard to apply. My only ethical consideration is that your wife saw the guy when you went to the business, so the business is somewhat involved in the decision.
Bob;
Yes the business became very involved when they doubled the service charge Shame on them!!!
Paul,
If they do quality work, for a better price and it helps the family out I have no problem with it. Like you’ve said in the past it’s good to have a list of people to go to when needed.
PapaDuck;
The “I Have A Guy” list is the most treasured collection you my process here in the Philippines. If in the past they were treated fairly and with respect, they can solve your problems within a few hours.
Paul,
As I have pointed out many times, i like to keep my money. That means saving where you can. I don’t know anyone that doesn’t do sidework of some sort. Whether it is in the same line of work as their primary job or another line of work.
I also don’t know many people that would not take pass up on a side job for some extra cash. And why shouldn’t they? Especially in the Philippines where so many are just getting by?
I also believe in helping my neighbors, and if they have a skill that that fix my problems, I’d rather keep the money local.
Just my opinion.
Scott;
But if you were at a company and the employee offered you the chance to bypass the company and opt for the under the table option, would you do it?
Hi Paul –
I don’t apply this “is this morally and ethically wrong” bit as a blanket judgment for everything that my appear questionable to me morally and ethically.
Rather, I take it on a case by case basis. Sure, there is theft going on nearly everywhere we turn these days, but such is life. We don’t live in a perfect world. Some are egregious outright theft from the employer that you definitely don’t want to be part of. But there are also theft that are so subtle and justified that they are barely recognizable as theft.
To the goody two shoes, however, theft is theft, whether egregious or subtle. But I am not a goody two shoes.
Nor, a lot of us are.
John Reyes;
I might have once owned a pair of those Goody Two Shoes, but I can’t remember where I put them. I would, like most people “not” buy something that “Fell of the truck” because in my point of view that is theft, but a persons honest labor or knowledge (Like my “Puter” guy” that we have bypassed his company for many years and I have his phone number on speed dial. But if he were to try and sell me something he purloined I draw the line on that. Honesty by degrees?
I think it is wrong, even if every one is doing it, to use the employee to do a job on the side, when you have in fact first met him as a customer of that business.
The company owner has his overheads and naturally will have to charge more, sometimes much more to cover his expenses and still have something left at the end of the month. The full extent of such overheads may not be apparent to others, but Paul, you having been business owner yourself, would better appreciate this.
The fact is that if you had met him through the business then the possibility of you knowing about him and later hiring him, would have been highly improbable.
The business owner should be allowed to reap the harvest from his good judgment in hiring this employee and training him accordingly to get to his level of competence.
Consider also, that if no one encourages the side jobs, then the owner would have more business and may be able to pay his employees better. A very big ‘maybe’ though!!
Hate to say this Paul, but such is normally considered predatory practice in business!
Man, is it not tough trying to be a good Catholic!!
Zaccheus
In the Philippines the odds of an employer ever paying a fair wage is slim to none, knowing that the business owner is partly responsible as to why his employee is doing the side work. I would dare to say that if an employee is paid a decent living wage, that they would not risk the loss of a good job by approaching customers with their offer.
But in the interest of fairness the true answer is in the gray areas.
I would agree to a point. However, one thing you will never avoid here is the Skin Tax. That business owner is seeing Pe$o $ign$ with the Kano at the counter. The name of the game, whether anyone wants to admit it or not, is “get all you can from the Big Noses.” Living in this country, you must accept that. On the flip side of that, another game goes by the name of, “I know a guy who can do that for less.”
Coping with both strategies is how one best fits in here. Having a spouse, good friend, family member, etc who “knows someone” is probably the most basic “Filipino” thing you can ever do. EVERYTHING in this country revolves around who you know.
Doug Thompson;
The “Who you know” is always the best option for anyone. Sending your wife in to shop and fight the price while you have a cold canned consumable. then showing up when the sale is completed is so much fun.
Just to correct a typo on my last submission in the 3rd paragraph. Should read:
The fact is that if you had NOT met him through the business then the possibility of you knowing about him and later hiring him, would have been highly improbable.
Zaccheus
Bob should add and edit feature, if only just for me to use. (lol)
Paul, Just have a couple of stiff drinks and your moral dilemma will vanish before your eyes I also think you have too much free time on your hands maybe you should wax your generator set ?
Tom;
I was up the street having a cocktail with my friend Bill from Australia, and he recommended the same thing. As for the cleaning of the generator, you know I have a Guy” for that.
In Honesty and that is your question or you would not have a conscience about it ……is this… If he is working for a company and approaches you there it is wrong. I would say no at that time but I might or would get his number for another time…..However if someone you know who knows him and gives you a contact number and recommendation for him… there is nothing wrong with that… what you and I do on our own time is our business…Just like having a beer …. haha
Lenny;
Sneaky answer it’s wrong and in other situations it could be right. Okay I’ll buy that! (lol)
I have a case of “Pussers” that fell of a truck Paul. (joke)
John J.
The last time I had Pusser’s Rum I was at the Soggy Dollar Bar in the British Virgin Islands. It’s not nice to tease Paul! (LOL)
Sounds like I never left the Philippines, Same practice is going here. I know quite a few stuff going here. Roofing, RV repair, Plumbing, AC, etc, most factory trained & certified employees are working under the table and cutting the employeers off.
Edgardo Blancaflor Dominguez:
It must be a world wide phenomena,(Except the RV repair, not much of that here in Asia.)
Paul
Your articles are about the only thing that I like about Mondays these days!
The question that remains is that if your wife already knew the guy lived near you then why did she let you go to town to speak to the company?
We are all wise after the event LOL.
Actually, we have a builder friend who does work for us in Davao despite working for a building “company” on Samal island. Anyway, whenever we ask him if he is available he always takes holiday from his job and does he work for us. As we don’t know the company he works for and have never spoken to them I don’t see that we are doing anything wrong.
Cheers
AJ UK
His wife knew the wife of the guy, but didn’t know that he was the guy until they saw the guy when they went to the shop. Clear as mud, yes?
Popping another SMB!
Doug Thompson;
Clear as mud, but it covered the ground, after being here for over 20 years it made sense to me.
I really should read the articles fully at lunchtime before commenting and not sneakily read it bit by bit during working hours!
Roll on home time and another SMB. Luckily they sell it in Singapore!
AJ UK; When I was a Merchant Seaman I spent a lot of time in Singapore tied up at the Royal Navy Pier (I can’t spell Sambowone????) and I believe the Brit Club was called the Terror club? Great times in Singapore,what I can remember.
AJ UK;
She saw him working in the shop section after we entered the building, and recognized him. And under the situation you listed, you’re as right as rain.
Paul,
I agree with most here. The employer was seeking to take advantage of both you and the employee (inferred, as he needed more income outside of his job). You aren’t using the employer’s facilities, nor does he own ‘your guy’ outside of work hours. And the dealer knows all too well that his guy lives around the corner from his loyal customer, so the travel argument is BS. At that point for me, he’d have lost my business and I’d no longer be his customer.
Dilemma resolved. Grab a beer and ponder other curiosities. Cheers!
John Weeks;
You called it as I never again went back to the store that sold me the generator. But the place that had the beer…..
Paul,
Anyone can buy a sixer and drink it, many times for the same price as one or two drinks at the pub. But even if your buds are one the stoop with you it’s not the same as the bar, no loud music, no singing drunks (except said buds), no young lovelies bringing the next round, no ambenaunce.
The dealer should be charging 5x the back yard mechanics labor. Your generator guy should be charging a lot less than half. He’ll pay no insurance, no SS, no rent on a shop. Of course he will offer the same ITSAYOURFAULT warranty, if it breaks it’s your fault…..
Gerald Glatt;
If I provided my friends with only a six pack, I doubt if they would show up. I know I wouldn’t! (lol)
And receiving the same warrantee from my generator guy as his company would give just ends up being a push. But as I stated I’ve been lucky and received some fine workmanship from the “Guy’s” I’ve hired.
i would do the same thing paul. as i will be on a fixed income when i move to philippines.
Anthony Bosetti;
Ah the fixed income club, I’ve been a member since 2000, but somehow it seems to work out okay. But we must cut corners whenever we can.