As I often say, one frequently gets at least as much good information and food for thought from the comments to the articles on this site as one does from the articles themselves.
Less than a week ago (as I write this) Bob published an article of mine entitled Strategies For Supporting Yourself in the Philippines . If you haven’t read the post, I recommend you click the link and read the “Strategies” article first. Go ahead, we’ll wait *smile*
Some Very Good Points
I received a number of well-thought out reader comments to that article, including this one which I felt made so many good points and opened so many avenues of thought that it deserved it’s own article. If you are reading this, great, because that means Bob agreed with the interest level and published it.
The “Fire starter”
I received this excellent comment from reader Brent Johnson which I’ll address here. Brent’s words are in blue and set off in quotes. Thanks Brent.
If the days of “working for someone else” are truly gone, than the vast majority of the world’s population is screwed.
Well actually, they are pretty much screwed. Or not, depending upon what you mean by the “Majority of the world’s population. If you mean the “westernized” or developed countries like the USA, Canada, the European nations and Australia/New Zealand, then, indeed, I hold strongly that sticking to the “last century” model of going to a Teutonic, “learn by rote” educational system and then putting yourself at the mercy of a “care less” corporation or an economically unsound government “J*O*B mill” means the outlook is bleak, yes, I say it is.
Where Is The majority Of The World’s Population?
However if you think of the world’s actual population? Not so much. The US (as one example) makes the most noise, but is by no means dominant in numbers. See the interesting circle? Already the inner circle is the majority of the world’s population and the imbalance is growing daily.
The scary part is, the “inner circle” now holds the mortgage on much of the outer circle, which is increasingly “underwater” on it’s obligations. Is the “Inner Circle” on the map more or perhaps less “screwed “ than the larger portion which as Americans we seem to think is still the center of the world’s economy?
Las year the BsP (Philippine Central Bank) started offering a new investment product .. Philippine Treasury Bonds denominated in Japanese Yen.
Why? Because the government of Japan is very uneasy about the huge amount of US Treasury bonds it already holds, and the debt ratio of the USA is absolutely scary compared to the excellent capitalization rate of the Philippines.
To many countries, investment in the USA is like buying “junk bonds” or buying investment products made up of toxic mortgages.
But Numbers Of People Isn’t Everything
Yes, that’s so. How about brains and talent and Education?
Let’s look at the percentage of post graduate college students in STEM (science, technology, engineering, and math) programs. Oh, about ten times as many Chinese as US students .. right in the USA itself.
In India, there are more students in Advanced Gifted and Talented programs than there are total students in the USA.
But the “outside the circle” countries are still the “world leaders”?
Open to opinion in my view.
My “anti-job” rant is directed mainly at “golden agers” like myself and my “avatar”, Joe, who realistically are never going to find a good job.
Would I give a 20-something person the same advice today? Probably not as forcefully (although I know plenty of 20’’-something and 30-something Westerners living here in Asia and doing quite well without a “conventional” J*O*B. But I would give that 20-something guy or gal the advice that the language they should be studying is Mandarin.
While it is nice to think that anyone with ambition, a business plan, and a bit of smarts can start their own business, I just don’t see how that is realistically sustainable. This would mean the world is comprised of billions of sole-proprietorships.
This is one of your points where I feel there’s a bit of logical fallacy. Your first sentence is exactly what I have been saying. Virtually word for word.
Your Conclusion
But the conclusion you draw is that this is in some way a bad thing, because it will lead to the whole world becoming a bunch of sole proprietorships. It’s a possible conclusion, but given the amount of variation in people and the choices they make, hardly the most probably outcome.
My Conclusion
Seems to be exactly the opposite. Instead of following the herd on to the treadmill where it is assumed one will be “safe” (perhaps). And where it is also a virtual certainty that s/he can never really excel, my thought is, if one wants to play the lottery (and life is, indeed a lottery no matter what choices one makes), why not try for a win rather than a draw or even worse?
Because, “lucking out” and getting a steady, corporate job, and burning up the best years of your life to settle for whatever pension they give you is NOT a win. It’s a draw, at best.
Should we encourage everyone to “stay on the job treadmill” because if too many people take advantage of their true talents and start getting paid what they are worth, rather than what the “job market” dictates they are worth, they might somehow “collapse the economy” and lead to some economic catastrophe?
Fair enough if that’s your opinion but to me it seems a bit towards the “Don’t take a chance, follow the herd” sort of thinking.
Frankly, the economy is already in collapse.
Even for those who have a J*O*B.
- Take home pay is definitely shrinking year after year.
- Benefits? Going away faster than many commentators can create rants of protest.
- Retirement plans (one of the factors people often use to rationalize the “submission” to jobs rather than the uncertainties of entrepreneurship)? They are becoming a distant memory to thousands of workers every month.
About all I can say is, build something for yourself while you still can, or “Plan Accordingly”.
The Most Important Thing You Said, Brent, By Far:
In my opinion, the realistic solution for most people, even professionals is to keep on top of the skills and technologies that are most needed at any given time as to be both employable and indispensable at the same time.
It would be difficult for me to be more in agreement with this thought than I already am. And I would like to add to anyone reading these words .. young, old, Filipino, foreigner, advanced degree holder or high school dropout, whatever. Please read what Brent wrote above .. end then read it over again a time or two.
Ask yourself, no matter where your feeling are on this pro-job/anti-job discussion I got started here.
How am I applying this advice to myself?
Trust me, it’s wise advice that will pay off handsomely in the future. Wish I’d said it.
Again – I’m the first commenter. Good follow-up and completely agree. In fact, I’m HERE precisely because my status as an entrepreneur / small business owner allows me to be here without a traditional job. I fell into a career because I ended up with a specialized area of knowledge that is in high demand (and hard to replicate). Not because I had any great strategy – but it did take a lot of introspection to realize it – then to take courageous action on that insight.
It’s scary stepping out there on your own – but the world is already there and at least I’m not laying awake at night worrying about getting cut loose by my boss or that my employer will be bought and my job sent elsewhere. Risk is everywhere, but I agree it’s best to set one’s own course than to wait for fate to decide for you.
Correct John,
And there are many like you that haven’t made that jump yet, but should.
The stress just shortens their lives… and for what purpose other than worrying.
Some months back, a certain lady went to see a specialist in skin care here in northern Virginia for consultation to remove some blemish on her face caused by exposure to the sun. As advertised, the consultation was free, but the procedure itself, called chemical-lift, ran in the thousands of dollars per treatment, of which about half a dozen treatments would be required to remove the face blemish completely. The would-be lady patient made an appointment and was interviewed by an attendant at the medical office. But, instead of admitting her as a patient of the medical office in which she was employed, the attendant surreptitiously steered the would-be patient away from the business telling her that she (the attendant) can do the same thing and achieve the same results using the very same chemicals used in the office for a couple of hundred dollars per treatment, instead of a thousand. She would perform the procedure at her own home on weekends.
Apparently, the attendant had been steering away patients from her employer routinely, and was now making more money from her weekend job at home than she was making at the office for peanuts per hour. On the last treatment, this lady told my wife (the would-be patient) that she would soon quit her “traditional” job and open an office of her own and get paid for what she is worth, instead of placing her survivability at the hands of an employer who dictates what she is worth, and, worse, could fire her at a moment’s notice.
No offense intended, Dave, but this is the best example I could think of regarding your dissertation about transitioning from the ancient mindset into the 21st century. 🙂
Hi John – you said:
Not only can he fire her, he absolutely needs to, given that she is stealing from him!
You’re right.
“Because, “lucking out” and getting a steady, corporate job, and burning up the best years of your life to settle for whatever pension they give you is NOT a win. It’s a draw, at best.”
“Even for those who have a J*O*B.
Take home pay is definitely shrinking year after year.
Benefits? Going away faster than many commentators can create rants of protest.
Retirement plans (one of the factors people often use to rationalize the “submission” to jobs rather than the uncertainties of entrepreneurship)? They are becoming a distant memory to thousands of workers every month.”
Dave – this sounds like gloom and doom to me for conventional job holders. How do you define “win”? My eldest son holds a conventional job, but I don’t think he feels being cheated out of the best years of his life only to settle for whatever pension his employer gives him in the end.
He is an executive at Northrop Grumman, a defense contractor. I don’t think his take home pay is shrinking, either. On the contrary, I think he makes a nice sum in salary and bonuses that is increasing, not shrinking, to be able to take his family of four on vacations overseas regularly, and afford to buy expensive toys like a Harley-Davidson paid for in cash. Nice home in the suburbs, late model cars in the garage. His retirement plans and benefits are not dictated, they are negotiated. By him, to the best of my knowledge. He also owns a beach house in a resort community on Fenwick Island, Delaware, of which I am the sole occupant all year round, except on weekends in the Spring and Summer when he comes down to play golf. Am I being boastful? In fact, no, I am just saying that for every generalization, there are exceptions.
I don’t think you’ve pointed out an exception John. There are a couple of key things in your example; “executive” and “defense contractor”. The trend we’re seeing is that things are improving for those at the top. Down here in the blue collar world where most of us live, things are deteriorating just as Dave described, and the prospects for the future look bleak for those wanting to continue the old path.
I also work for a defense contractor, not at the executive level, but down in the trenches. Things have been shrinking for about 3 years. I think that’s when the sour economy finally began to catch up to runaway government spending. They have cut our team by over half and reduced our hours. The contract cowboys are jumping from temp job to temp job just to stay afloat. There are still a lot of fish, but the pond is getting smaller and smaller.
The private sector hereabouts has been worse for longer. People are scrambling for low wage jobs with few or no benefits. The standard company line is “You should be grateful to us that you even have a job.”
My solution for myself is to make room for the younger folks. I have a modest government pension and will participate in the agricultural micro-economy in the Philippines. My advice to my own son, just starting out on this adventure, is similar to what Dave is preaching.
Take care,
Pete
Pete, the exception that I tried to point out is not because Tarik Reyes is the Director for Business Development, Civilian Federal, Civil Systems Division, Information Systems, Northrop Grumman Corporation, but, rather, Dave’s flat-out pronouncement that “getting a steady, corporate job, and burning up the best years of your life to settle for whatever pension they give you is NOT a win. It’s a draw, at best.”
Plus, the general assumption that,
“Even for those who have a J*O*B.
Take home pay is definitely shrinking year after year.
Benefits? Going away faster than many commentators can create rants of protest.
Retirement plans (one of the factors people often use to rationalize the “submission” to jobs rather than the uncertainties of entrepreneurship)? They are becoming a distant memory to thousands of workers every month.”
Well, it’s difficult for me to reconcile such assumptions with what I observe insofar as Tarik is concerned; thus, the exception that I tried to point out.
For the sake of accuracy, Tarik’s present title at NGC is as follows: (Cut and pasted from Linkedin)
Tarik Michael Reyes
Federal Mission Programs, Vice President of Business Development
Northrop Grumman Corporation
Washington D.C. Metro Area Defense & Space
But, again, the fact that he holds such position at NGC is not the reason why I pointed out an exception. It’s the fact that he and others like him in the corporate world do not necessarily “submit” to jobs like mindless robots for the sake of benefits and retirement plans.
Thanks John,
We may simply be quibbling over our own perceptions of the word “exception”. I think that you are maintaining that an executive in a high tech company with an in demand product is an exception to the economic picture that Dave has painted. I thin that it is actually a part of the larger equation.
To continue my analogy of the shrinking pond: The big fish at the top of the food chain are still comfortable in the deep water. Things may even be getting better for them as the receding waters push more food their way. The small fish are still doing relatively well in the shallows, although the resources there are drying up. The middle size fish are scrambling. They must either go into the deep water where many are eaten by the big fish, or compete with the more mobile small fish for the diminishing resources in the shallows. Many simply will not make it. Others will adapt to the new waters. I believe that the best chance for success however, is to do as Dave suggested. Grow lungs and strike out into a new environment.
Take care,
Pete
Hi Pete –
I did have a nagging feeling after my last post on this subject that we were not connecting and was about to post a follow up comment to ask you if I understood your question, and if I provided you an adequate answer. However, to clarify, it was very clear to me at the outset that what Dave was preaching about striking out on your own, rather than work for someone, especially when the demand for your expertise is waning because of your age is sound advice. I guess I was looking at the smaller picture and was responding selectively to certain passages in the article without taking the whole in context?
John,
I think we were also looking at this from very different perspectives. The county I grew up in has the distinction of having the highest unemployment rate in the state, It hasn’t been a sudden thing. I’ve watched from a distance as the place went through a 40 year long downward spiral.
First the furniture factories laid off their full time workers. They hired people only on a temp basis when they made a run of furniture. Then the knitting mills closed down, the work being sent overseas. Next, the chemical plants closed shop or relocated. Finally, the furniture factories, sent all of their work overseas. The companies are still in business. The owners are still rich. But the entire economic base of the area is gone. They even tore down the factory buildings for the 100 year old timbers, cut from the surrounding mountains in the boom years of the early 20th century. Even they were sold overseas, as the owners squeezed every dime out of the place without regard for the human labor that made their wealth possible.
I have an uncle and a couple of cousins whom I consider success stories from all of this. My uncle was an executive vice president of the largest furniture factory in the area. As one poster here suggested, he made himself indispensable by having an intimate knowledge of the entire process. He spent more time on the factory floor than he did behind a desk, frequently showing up to board meetings in his coveralls instead of a suit. He stayed on board, even as whole departments were shut down. He finally retired with a full executive package just as the last of the plants were closing down. As a cowboy might say, he rode it high and hard to the ground.
His kids, both roughly 10 years younger than me, were advised to stay out of the family business. His daughter got a degree in art. Folks told her she was foolish. That she’d never find work in such a field. She started out designing the displays in store windows. Now, she designs showroom layouts for a Chinese based furniture company. She’s sort of an interior decorator on steroids. She now owns a home in the “old money” section of town. His son is part owner of a fish farm. Instead of coveralls, he often works in a bathing suit. They nearly lost everything to a fish die out early in the process. But he stuck with it. They are now in the black and growing.
Many of us left the sinking ship. Some rode it out. Some few reinvented themselves and are doing OK. Most are stuck, living on government assistance of some form or another, From where I stand, I see the downward trend starting to creep into the public sector. I think it is far from over.
Take care,
Pete
Bingo! “Different perspectives”. It’s like me sitting comfortably in the owner’s opulent box with caviar and lobster being passed around by white-gloved waiters while watching a Redskins game on FedEx Field, and you are sitting on the bleachers in inclement weather munching soggy popcorn.
Yes, Pete, I am aware that such depressed areas as you described exist, it’s just that I have never been exposed to them in all my life living in America. My perspective of American life has always been generally that of prosperity.
I lived in the Monterey Peninsula where I came of age. It was a place – specifically Pebble Beach, Carmel, Carmel Highlands, Big Sur – where I became intensely aware of the words, opulence and elegance. Oh, no, my family was not opulent by any means, but I was constantly exposed to manifestations of extreme wealth by serving visitors from San Francisco and Southern California who flocked to Pebble Beach to play in the Bing Crosby golf tournaments and show off their Packards and Bugattis and pet poodles on the manicured lawns of the Del Monte Lodge where I worked during the summer.
Then comes Washington, D.C., and the metropolitan region, where I worked and lived for most of my life, the acknowledged home of the rich and the politically powerful. Six of 10 America’s wealthiest counties are found in the Washington, D.C. metropolitan region.
And, presently where I live today, in a resort community on Fenwick Island, Delaware, where I pump iron at the gym shoulder to shoulder with some of the areas very rich.
With all the the manifestations of wealth all around me, can you fault me for being unable to relate to stories of despair in certain regions of America, nor of dire warnings of an “economic collapse” soon to befall America?
Right on the money.
For anyone that hasn’t read the book “The Lexus and the Olive Tree” by Tom Friedman of the NY Times, it defined what is happening now. The fall of the Berlin Wall and end of the Cold War meant that everyone is now on a level playing field, and as demonstrated repeatedly throughout history, people want a good deal.
Supplies, services, goods… markets will develop and price pressure will result in anyone buying anything from anywhere. Which means that with a simple mouse click, you order something that is sourced half way around the world and FedEx, UPS, DHL, etc. delivers it to your doorstep.
Get used to it. Working for yourself in something YOU consider meaningful means that you are your own boss. If you are expecting big bubba in the sky to take care of you, forget it. Get off your keester and decide what you want to do with your life. Whether that is crocheting baby booties or designing the next Mars lander, that is up to you, but no one is going to hold your hand.
I have made career transitions several times, so don’t cry about how hard it is. Just find what you LIKE to do, not what someone TELLS you to do. That makes life a lot saner for you and everyone you deal with. If you are unhappy with your career, time to make a change, whatever that is. I have been poor and rich, and trust me, my friends on the poor end of the spectrum were a lot more forgiving and understanding that when i rolled in dough. Its all up to you on what YOU want to do with your life. For me it was simplifying it. I don’t live like a pauper, but then again I think a lot more about what is valuable to me now than when i did those 100 plus hour weeks for one of those glorious “corporations” that in the end look at you as human fodder for their empires.
Dave- Thanks for a great article.
Dave,
Have to agree with John above. There are still alt of great corporations that do give raises, good benefits and retirement plans. Maybe not as much as the past, but I think better than what you are projecting to the readers. I just officially retired on March 1st after being on terminal vacation for nearly a year receiving my normal paycheck. I even received a nice raise during that period and a nice amount for unused sick time when I officially retired. Received my first pension payment on March 31st.
From the way I understand the article, Dave is talking about jobs in the Philippines for foreigners. Both John and PapaDuck are talking about jobs in the USA. Apples and oranges.
…Frankly, the economy is already in collapse…
Absolutely correct!!!
Guess what will follow!!???
Throughout human history, an economic collapse is always followed by WAR(S).
A nation has to be economically strong to go to war. I liken Nostradamus’ quatrains to predictions found in a Chinese fortune cookie. You can interpret both in any way you like to fit your own situation. You also promised to post a photo of your doomsday bunker when it is completed..
There are all kinds of reasons why wars do occur. A strong economy is WITHOUT A DOUBT the last on the list.
Unfortunately for all of us, we are already on a count-down.
LOL PB, you’re still my man! I did not say a strong economy is one of the reasons why wars occur. I said, “a nation has to be economically strong to go to war”. Big difference. I like it much better when you describe your life out there in beautiful Palawan. How far do you live from El Nido, anyway? 🙂
When I first started in a design office I was put on a drawing board doing manual drawings and quite enjoyed it.
A few years later, computer aided design (CAD) was coming into the work place. I wanted to go in that direction as I could see the use for it. All the grey haired engineers in the office poo-poo’d it saying that it would never last. Five years later all of the grey heads were coming to me for lessons so that they did not get pushed out of the industry.
I was lucky as I had a good grounding in both manual design and CAD but the people before my office generation and those after only really had the one tool. I am also lucky that I manage to move from project to project continually updating my knowledge of the systems I use.
I think this falls into line with the statement above about keeping on top of the skills and technology.
Cheers
AJ UK
Dave, my initial post that prompted this spin-off article was primarily written from the stand-point of a “professional” working and living in America (or likely any industrialized country), so I’ll stand by them. Your comments regarding “working for others” in the context of ex pats moving to the Philippines and continuing to have income are spot on as well, in that working for others isn’t realistic for the majority of them, due to restrictions on foreigner employment, obscenely low local wages, etc. So, the second part of my initial post should include an appendix where the hard working, always skills-relevant American worker also devices a plan on the side to generate a certain amount of steady income to supplement whatever he has squirreled away in his 401K account so that his life of ease in the tropics will continue to be funded!