Over the past 2 weeks, Paul Keating has written a 2-article series regarding US Citizenship, and the implications and procedures to relinquish US Citizenship. I have been following Paul’s articles keenly, trying to glean what information I could, because it is an issue that has been on my mind for a couple of years. Over the past couple of years I have written several articles regarding the possibility of becoming a Philippine Citizen myself.
On June 10, 2008, I addressed the topic for the first time, and at the end of my article I flatly said that I was going to pursue Philippine Citizenship. After writing that, I went and saw an attorney and discussed the possibility of becoming a Philippine Citizen.
Later, on February 25, 2009, I wrote another article about Citizenship, and said that I was considering applying for Philippine Citizenship, but was still unsure. Why the difference? Well, when I wrote the first article, I was really sure that I wanted to do it. Some 6 or 7 months later, though, I was having second thoughts.
In another article, early this year, on January 13, 2010, I again said that I am still considering it.
So, over the past 2 weeks, I have followed Paul’s articles with interest. I have particularly been watching the comments to see what others have to say.
Why am I undecided about this topic? Well, I am a US Citizen. I have no hatred or ill feelings toward the USA. I love the USA, even if I don’t live there. So, why consider Philippine Citizenship? Because I have also come to love the Philippines very deeply. In Paul’s articles, one of the things that there was a big focus on was taxes. Lately, there have been several articles in the news (NY Times, Wall Street Journal and others) stating that more US Expats are starting to relinquish their US Citizenship, because of the US tax bite. Let me say, my internal debate has nothing to do with taxes or anything at all financial. What it comes down to is love of country. My problem is that I love the USA, but I also love the Philippines.
Part of my consideration also includes the fact that I don’t plan to ever return to the USA, I believe I am in the Philippines for good. Oh, I will take vacations outside the Philippines, I am sure, but I honestly don’t even plan to vacation in the USA any longer. I’ve been there… I’ve done that… and I don’t feel a desire to return. So, because I love the USA and I love the Philippines, it is a tough decision. Because I am in the Philippines, and I have lived here for a decade, I have an inkling to become a Citizen of the Philippines. But, I don’t feel right about denouncing my US citizenship either. It is a very hard decision that I have truly struggled with for a couple of years now. I qualify to apply for Philippine Citizenship, and I am sure I would have no problems becoming naturalized here.
What about dual citizenship? Well, there are catches there. For a former Philippine Citizen who became naturalized as a US Citizen (or other countries too), it is a simple matter of filling out a paper, taking an oath, and they will become a citizen of both the Philippines and the USA. However, the Philippine Dual Citizenship law only applies to former Philippine Citizens. If a foreigner elects to become a naturalized citizen of the Philippines, he must renounce his citizenship to other countries as part of the process. As part of becoming a Philippine Citizen, you must raise your hand and say:
I hereby renounce my US Citizenship.
Here is a catch, though. If you say that, the USA does not accept that as being enough to actually give up your citizenship. It is a complicated process to actually give up US Citizenship. However, saying those words is all that the Philippines requires. So, is it possible to be a dual citizen? I believe that it is. You can satisfy the Philippines by saying those words, yet you won’t lose your US Citizenship, because you have not done enough to lose it. However, the USA also has a policy (not a law, just a policy) that by becoming naturalized in another country, that is an act showing that you no longer want to be a US Citizen. Technically, though, they say that you must do certain things to relinquish your citizenship. So, which is it? Technically, I believe that you would be a dual citizen by simply going through the Philippine naturalization process. However, you would also be technically breaking the intent of each country.
So, so, so… what to do? I am still unsure. I have a desire to be a Philippine Citizen. I also want to be a US Citizen. I know that a lot of readers will think that I would be stupid to become a Philippine Citizen. I can already hear it – “what is the benefit?” Well, for me the benefit is that I love the Philippines, and I have a desire to “make it official” – if you know what I mean. I can’t explain it better than that. I also, though, feel a need to make a decision on this, rather than just letting it linger, as I have for a couple of years now.
For those who think I would be crazy to do this, let me say this… for many years, I felt the same. I always said that I would never give up my US Citizenship. It has only been in the past few years, as I developed a stronger love for the Philippines, and become more understanding of the culture here and such that I even came to consider it.
It’s not easy to decide, though, and I can now feel and appreciate the feelings of the millions of immigrants who came to the USA over the past 200+ years. I know that it was a struggle for them to make this decision too.
If you really want to become citizen then why don’t you go for it? I will have benefits; you can own property and buy some more, own local business…
Since it is so difficult to actually loose USA citizenship I would not have a headache over it. Myself, I was born in Europe and own EU passport and I am also Canadian citizen and have Canadian passport. I don’t feel guilty, I paid my taxes on both continents, I don’t own anything to anyone…
Hi Marcel – Thanks for your encouragement. I am caught somewhere in the middle right now. I would really like to become a citizen, but I also have a feeling of not wanting to give up my US citizenship (although that feeling is growing smaller as my time passes here). I agree that because of the difficulty in giving up US Citizenship, it is likely that I would probably just have both.
Hi Bob
For practical reason, I think you should not burn the bridges by renouncing your US citizenship. You are already expressing your love for the Philippines by staying there for good. But we dont know what the future hold. Let’s face it. The Philippines is not that stable politically, socially and economically. There could be a time that you maybe be forced to leave the Philippines even if you dont want too eg. political upheaval, etc., and your US passport is your only way out for you and your family. So I say keep your US citizenship.
Hi Alex – That is a consideration that I have thought about, of course.
Hi Bob
I agree with Alex. For just one reason alone that the Philippines is still politically unstable is more than enough reason for you to keep your US passport. It will come in handy in any worst case scenario in the Philippines. I’m saying this objectively since I originally came from the Philippines and looking forward to coming back and enjoying my semi-retirement there.
Hi Eric – Thanks for sharing your opinion, it is something more for me to weigh as I decide what is right for me.
Hi Bob,
I’m in full agreement with Eric and Alex. If you need to roll out of the PI fast you’ll need that US Passport. No one can forecast emergencies back in the US. Also there could be a situation where you would need to get back to the US fast but not in a crisis. Please consider carefully. You know you can put property and Biz. in Feyma’s name. And if you want to officially show your love for the PI, just fly a Philippine flag in front of your house(with your US Passport in your back pocket):)
One thing that most Americans have trouble comprehending is that not everyone in the world thinks that the usa is the greatest nation on earth- a nd that given the choice everyone would become Americans. And it is this blind devotion that causes a lot of people in other countries to at best dislike, and at worst despise Americans.
I am a proud Canadian, and I do not know any Canadians that wish to become Americans. Just as most people in other industrialized countries are proud of their country, and would not change their citizenship for American citizenship. National pride is a wonderful thing, and to be valued, but going beyond that to believe that no other country is as good, or ever could be as good, is just being oblivious to reality. And leads to all kinds of trouble for the usa and Americans in general.
People who have had exposure to other cultures tend not to have the ” God’s chosen people” attitude, but not always. Richard says he has spent quality time in over 50 countries, but given his attitude on things I really question just how “quality” his time spent in those countries was. To me spending quality time involves being open to other cultures, and to experience them without reservation and pre-judgement.
I have only been here for 2 years, but I find that my attitude towards things filipino is changing constantly. A lot of it has to do with my increasing acceptance of things filipino, and not my constantly seeing them thru Western eyes.
If anyone reading this has the attitude that I am anti-American then for me your attitude is the proof of what I am saying !! lol
Hi Ian – Hmmmm. Correct me if I’m wrong, but aren’t Canadians “Americans”?
Last time I spoke to a Canadian in person, he reassured me he was an “American,” eh? A “North American,” eh? 😆
We also had a good yuk-yuk that people from the USA shouldn’t uniquely identified as “Americans,” but perhaps as “United Stations.” 😆
Hi ian – Americans truly do have a superiority complex. No doubt about that one. 😉
Thanks for your thoughts, BuckeyeBob.
So to obtain Philippine Citizenship all you need to do is meet the 5 year (if you are married to a Filipina) residency requirement and raise you right hand and renounce your US Citizenship. Hmmmmmmm.
Well I salute you Bob for your undying love for the Philippines. Of the hundreds of US Citizens I have met here over the years not one professes a love for this Country as you do and across the board based on they mostly agree they would only become a citizen to avail themselves:
1. Not having to form a corporation or partnership with a Filipino to own property;
2. Be able to react with a hardy F you to Filipinos who might tell them this is not their country or to go home for one ridiculous reason or another usually out of jealousy or the foreigner is a little agressive with the Filipinos complacency or lack of intelligence on one matter or another;
3. Not having to fear deportation;
3. To shoot those barking dogs at night that keep them awake rather than deal with the complacent do nothing owners (kidding – this wasn’t one of the reasons)
but for love of country……Not One!!! and they were from different religions, political leanings, etc….
But you are different Bob and as you say it is unlikely you will ever go back to the US so why not You Should. My impression is you love this Country more than most Filipinos or they wouldn’t be tolerating the kind of crap that goes on here for as long as they have. Maybe you can run for something in coming years and help effect positive change.
Hi Richard – No, you have to do more than just live here 5 years and swear an oath of allegiance. There are other requirements. The toughest requirement for most would be that you must be able to speak one of the “principal languages of the Philippines” (other than English). I have checked with a local attorney, and Cebuano would be acceptable, so I meet that requirement as well. Actually I meet all of the requirements. The only thing is – do I want to do it? I want to, but also am conflicted about the US citizenship side of things.
BTW, I have no interest in ever running for any kind of office here.
Bob is there one web site that you know of that lays this out officially. I have been to a few sites dealing with this subject one being offical I think and none said anything about speaking Tagalog or Cebuano. Only english being the requirement as it was at one time the official language of the country or maybe still is???. Would be nice to finally clear up this very important topic. I for one would avail myself of citizenship (Dual) but mostly for the reason I pointed out earlier. I am thinking I could probably get a medical exemption as I don’t have the capacity (short term memory issues) to learn a second language.
Hi richard – the ability to “speak and write” one of the Philippine languages is an absolute requirement. Yes, English is still one of the official languages of the country, but you must be able to speak and write English and also one of the primary Philippine languages.
Here are some links to the law:
Commonwealth Act 473
Administrative Naturalization Law of 2000
Other than the language problem, you might have another disqualification, richard:
Ha ha, richard, you have always expressed that you don’t like to socialize with Filipinos, right? 😉
Yes you got me there hahaha. Bit i have to say it is really a little ambiguous as to its meaning. So does that mean I have to learn embrace:
CUSTOMS – An enjoyment of gambling and drinking and generally to be rude, dumb and complacent as often as possible.
TRADITIONS – Find any excuse to take a holiday and not work and celebrate fiesta.
IDEALS – Steal whatever you can when you can especially if in politics
But in defense I will say that Filipinos love for family is something to be envious about as the west in general has no concept about this.
Hi richard – Rude, dumb and complacent? You’re already an American citizen, and that is proof that you already posses those traits! America is the world leader in some areas, we can remain thankful for that! 😆
Maybe for others but not my upbringing. Yes the USA probably leads the world in those categories (Rude) – mostly those from the hurried Northeast Coast (Dumb) – probably raised in the deep South or parts of Middle America (Complacent) – this I don’t see much of in the USA.
BUT!!! Never in all my life have I seen these traits across the board in full bloom as I see it here in the PI compared to the many countries I have been to and spent quality time in (WELL OVER 50) Bob, the fact is you have only been in the USA (aside from the Philippines) your entire life and two months as a baby in South Africa doesn’t count. It’s probably better that you haven’t visited or spent time anywhere other than the Philippines as you are not jaded and have found a place that is wonderful for you.
I like (not love) the Philippines and I now call it home and make the very best of it on my terms which works very well. For me that means I stay with mostly fellow expats and those Filipinos I do hang with are upper society which are light years different in every way shape or form from the rest of the Counrty demographic. I make no apologies for this and to each their own. You have your happiness and I have mine. We both win.
Hi richard – I see a lot of Americans who are very rude, it is one of the reasons that I like to live here in the Philippines.
Your fact of where I have been and where I haven’t been, richard, show your ignorance. I have been to dozens of countries. I didn’t live “2 months in South Africa as a baby” – I have no idea where you got that idea. I lived there for 2 1/2 years, and I was not a baby, or anywhere near being a baby at that time. The reason that many of the things you say about me are so off base now becomes clear, because of your ignorance of who I am. Enough said on that.
Interesting as Filipinos are about the rudest or certainly on even par with Americans. My apology on the South Africa thing. I mean’t 2 1/2 years and I seem to rememner you saying your were a baby. However, (as I recall) in past posts you have never mentioned your travels to other specific countries except for South Africa. You reiterated this in later posts. When I can’t remember. I guess I will have to check back on that for my own clarification unless you’d like to shed some light on that unless of course it was during your time you were doing undercover work for the ……..LOL
richard – the places I have been to are not really relevant to this site, so I rarely write about such things. I have been to every North American Country, some of South America, a number of Caribbean countries, much of Europe, a number of African countries, and a number of Asian countries. What difference does it really make to you? Should I scan all of my old passports and e-mail it to you for approval, or what?
It is quite possible that since you bear a striking resemblence to a silverbacked gorilla; the Richard fellow just assumed you were born in a wildlife refuge in South Africa.
TEASING! Couldn’t resist
Tom – I’m not going to get in to the Arkansas jokes….
Hi Bob
No problem with Arkansas jokes but you will have to tell New Yorker jokes to attack me because that is where I was born. Going from New York to Arkansas was quite a culture shock. I hope you realize that I was just teasing you and trying to lighten the mood. It seems like Richard wants to get under your skin. I have been following your citizenship quandry with great interest. One thing that I haven’t seen mentioned is that there are limitations that repatriated and immigrant citizens have that natural born do not.
Hi Tom – Yeah, no problem, I know you were just being light hearted. 😉
Richard,
There are many US Citizens that love the Philippines. I enjoy the company of my girlfriend’s family and the many friends (daghan mga higala) that I have made in Leyte. I feel truly bless to have my future wife in my life. I always feel welcomed with a place to sleep and good food to eat. I feel respected because of trying to learn the language. You should try to look at what is good about your current home and not dwell on the negatives.
Well said, Jack!
I know what you mean It is wonderful to be about to move on. Wow Gina is 27 years old.
Hi Bob;
I can see no viable reason for me to change my citizenship, based on the following considerations. I have no desire to own a business here; my house is in my wife’s name and mine and I built it for her, and our children’s future. Also I can think of no person I could ever trust more than her.
I have a love for both my birth county, and the Philippines; I feel that I’m well accepted here, and so there would be no advantage for me to go through all that paperwork.
I’m not conflicted one bit, I seemed to have forgotten where the airport is, and I will rest well on and someday in Philippine soil. But I would also respectfully agree with anyone’s desire to change theirs.
Hi Paul – I believe that citizenship is a very person thing that only the person involved can choose. Just like when Feyma was in the States, I did not pressure her to become a US Citizen, that is what she wanted and chose to do. Now, I do not encourage her to go for the Dual Citizenship, it is her choice to make. The things you mention about being able to buy land or own a business are also really of no big concern to me. Feyma can already do those things, and I trust her 100%, as you do with your wife. We’ve been married for 20 years almost… I suspect that if she was out to get me, she would have already done so! 😯
Canada seems to make things easier to deal with this matter [ and to comprehend it ] than the usa does. This if from the govt web site by the way:
Dual citizenship
What is meant by dual citizenship?
Every independent nation makes its own decision as to who its citizens will be. You possess dual or multiple citizenship when more than one country recognizes you as its citizen.
Canadian citizenship law allows Canadian citizens to acquire a foreign nationality without automatically losing their Canadian citizenship. Canadian citizens who acquire another nationality may keep their Canadian citizenship, unless they voluntarily apply to renounce it and the application is approved by a citizenship judge. The law thus makes it possible to have two or more citizenships and allegiances at the same time for an indefinite period.
Consequently, you may have the rights and obligations conferred by each of these countries on its citizens. Whenever you are in a country that recognizes you as a citizen, its laws take priority over the laws of any other country of which you may be a citizen. International treaties may, however, allow exceptions to this rule.
A person may have several citizenships at the same time. For example, a person who was born in a country other than Canada, who applies for citizenship and is naturalized in Canada, and then naturalized in a third country may be a citizen of all three countries. However, cases of dual citizenship are more common. Although this pamphlet deals primarily with dual citizenship, the information contained in it applies equally to people who are citizens of more than two countries. The terms “dual citizenship” and “dual nationality” are now used interchangeably.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:b44yaPFgGxsJ:www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/publications/dual-citizenship.asp+canadian+citizenship+dual+citizenship&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca
Hi ian – I would have to say that I pretty much agree with you. The US is very unclear. On one hand, they have all kinds of hoops you must jump through to actually renounce your citizenship, yet on the other hand they say that if you swear allegiance to another country, you are considered to have given up your US citizenship. Which one is it? It can’t be both!
Canada allows dual citizenship probably only because they want to continue collecting taxes from you! 🙂
Hi John – The US allows dual citizenship too, but you cannot swear allegiance to a second country and remain a US citizen. You can become naturalized as a US citizen, and retain your previous citizenship, or can obtain a second citizenship, but not swear allegiance.
Further to the above- My take is that even if you hold up your hand and say ” I renounce my canadian citizenship” – that by itself wont mean anything at all to the Canadian authorities . Sort of like a Muslim saying ” i divorce you, i divorce you, i divorce you: lol It might mean something in the Muslim chuch but it certainly wont save your ass in family court ! lol
Ha ha… good one, ian!
Hey Bob,
Here’s something to consider. If you renounce your US citizenship, and become a Filipino citizen, how would you be able to travel back to the US on a Filipino passport in case of an emergency? i.e. death of a family member.
Hi Hudson – Of course, one never knows what the future holds, but I really have no plans to ever go back to the USA. Also, note that I wrote in the article about effectively having dual citizenship? 😉
I think it boils down to why you’re doing it. If you’re truly intending to acquire Filipino citizenship out of love / respect for the country, then I believe you are violating your integrity if you swear that you renounce your US Citizenship but have no intention of actually following through with that.
On the other hand, if your reasons for acquiring Filipino citizenship are different, e.g., desiring a certain personal advantage by holding dual citizenship, then it would seem that you won’t lose your US citizenship simply by the act of renouncing during the swearing-in process. So you will then in fact become a dual citizen.
Would there ever be ramifications if you did this knowingly? Doubtful – but if a paper trail was ever needed for some sort of prosecrution, your thought process would be fully documented on the webz 8-/
Good catch there, Gary! 😉
HI Bob,
I realize it is not that you have anything against the USA, it is just that you enjoy life better where you are now. From a common sense approach however, it seems that for hundreds of years so many people from all over the world have risked everything they had and even their lives to come to the USA and become a citizen here. Those of us that were born here in the USA lets just say got it for free. To me that would be something very difficult to give up although I would respect someone elses personal choice.
Have you looked into what you would have to do if you renounced your USA citizenship and then someday wanted to get it back ?
Dual citizenship would be ideal and there just may be ways to make that possible. As far as ” trading In ” your USA citizenship for any other country, for me that would be a very difficult thing to do. Good luck Bob in what ever your decision is on this.
Hi Bob – Yes, over the last century or so, people have flocked to America to get citizenship or whatever they could. I personally suspect that those days are drawing to a close, though, and we may even start seeing a reversal with Americans flocking abroad.
I believe that should I renounce citizenship and wish to re-obtain it, that would be very, very difficult. In fact, that is one of the reasons I am considering my options so carefully.
Gary- you tell Bob that if he holds up his hand and says something that he has no choice in whether he says it or not, but saying it is merely a legal formality, that you believe he is violating his integrity. lol In my opinion there is ” the perfect world” – and then there is reality !! lol I think you are being way too hard on Bob when you accuse him of lack of integrity, because if Bob had any choice in the matter I’m sure he wouldnt say what they demand that he say . If you go through life letting rules and bureaucrats and irrational laws determine how you live then to me that is truly a lack of integrity- because then you are not being true to yourself, and to me the real test of integrity is if you are true to yourself, and not if you follow all the silly rules that those bureacrats require.
Anyway- rant over !! lol.
Hi ian – the way I read Gary’s comment, I believe he was actually trying to give me a tip on how to accomplish what I want to do. I don’t think he was accusing me of a lack of integrity, but maybe I read it wrong. 😉 Gary can clarify.
Thanks for defending me, though! 😀
Ian, I think you didn’t read what I said. I never said not to do it because it violates your integrity. I said it depends on your intentions.
If you intend to become a dual citizen because it presents an advantage for you, and you don’t lose your US citizenship due to a loophole, I don’t have a problem with that whatsoever.
But if your intentions are to become a citizen purely out of love and respect for your adopted nation, and your first act is to lie, what’s the point?
Gary- ok. What i was responding to was the line ” then I believe you are violating your integrity if you swear that you renounce your US Citizenship but have no intention of actually following through with that.” I thought that was pretty clear, but apparently not ! haha
I meant that – just within a certain context however. It may not have been worded the best – sounded perfectly clear in my head 😉
Gary- it might be easier for us just to discuss how many angels we can fit on the head of a pin! haha I plead guilty of at times concentrating on the words rather than on the affect. Too many years playing attorney i think ! hahaha At the end of the day I think that all that really matters is that Bob is happy with his decision, and its obvious that you wish him as well in the process as I do !
Hi Gary – I guess that the reason I am struggling with the decision is because if I say the words, that is what I expect. I don’t expect to say “I renounce” and still keep it (although I expect that it technically possible). I intend to live by my word, whatever I decide.
OK Bob, fair enough. I guess I misunderstood. So the dilemma that if you renounce you fully intend to follow-through with it, and you’re struggling if that is something you want to do.
The opposite is true when someone naturalizes to the US. The Philippines now allows former citizens to re-acquire their citizenship. Since both nations allow dual citizenship between the two nations, it seems like the requirement to renounce is outdated. That’s directed at both nations, and I realize it’s not something that will easily be changed, if ever.
Someone commented about what does it take to re-acquire US citizenship? There’s also the question though, where does Filipino law stand regarding a naturalized citizen who obtains or re-acquires citizenship to another country – are they still recognized as a Filipino citizen? It’s not necessarily the same as a natural born citizen being dual nationality.
If your intention is not to exploit the loophole, and if there is no practical way of being a dual citizen otherwise, I would argue that you keep your US status. You just have more options, including (worldwide) travel, repatriation, etc., even if you have no plans for any of those things today.
Hi Gary – I know that the Philippines requires you to say the words “I renounce”. I do not know, though, what their policy is on re-acquiring. I don’t even know what their policy is on the fact that saying those words is not enough to actually accomplish the act of renouncing your citizenship. Interesting questions that I cannot find answers to.
Interesting subject. thanks for sharing it. Brings a few questions to my mind that I didn’t see answered here:
1. If on SS would you lose it if you renounce your US citizenship?
2. what would be the tax advantages or disadvantages?
3. Could you change your mind later and reclaim your citizenship?
4. what would be the benefits of becoming a Philippines citizen?
I can see you are torn on this issue and probably not for any of the concerns listed here. good luck on your decision.
Dennis
Hi Dennis – Here are my answers to your questions:
1. I am not sure on this.
2. It depends on the case. I am not an attorney or an accountant, so any information I give on this is only my opinion. For me, it would actually be disadvantageous, tax-wise.
3. No, once you renounce you have lost your citizenship. The US does not look kindly on this, and it is unlikely they would even let you naturalize again. I have even heard that it is nearly impossible to enter the US again in the future if you wish to do so.
4. For me, it would only be a sense of becoming one with my home, a sense of pride, etc.
I am sorry Bob, I could never say I “Renounce the USA. I live here because of a woman and the practicality of it and have found the people kind and thoughtful, remember also it was the USA who made it possible for us to live here, (The War).. To me its just a piece of paper… you live here already, are accepted by all, and have a good life, if you did not have to say those words, then I say it be ok, to me its like saying something like that to your Mother or Father, guess i did not know i was so patriotic untill you wrote this article….I wonder what your family in USA feelings about this would be?? If you could have dual citizenship without renouncing yes by all means I would say go for it, but for me the answer would be a restout No….Sorry… maybe not what you wanted to hear…
Hi lenny – What you say does not bother me, because it is a decision for me. Citizenship is a personal decision. I have mentioned the possibility to my Mother and she understands and is OK with it. My father is deceased. What is right for you is great, but it might not be the same as what I consider right for me. It is an intensely personal decision.
Bob I may not live long enough for this to become an issue for me (the law prevents me marrying my partner, so it’s a 10 year wait before I can even apply), but if I do, my current thinking is that I would seek citizenship. The reasons are twofold: one practical and one a matter of personal values.
The practical reason is that we can never know how the future will unfold, and the Philippines would not be the first country in the world to decide that foreigners are no longer welcome if it suited the political climate of the day. It’s not inconceivable that in 10 years time the region will see very unpleasant tensions between the USA and its allies and China, and it’s by no means guaranteed that the Filipino government of the day would side with the US. At least if I am a citizen, they can’t kick me out.
The other reason is that like you I intend to live here forever once I finally retire. If I’m doing that then I would be more comfortable giving a whole-hearted commitment to my new homeland. I read many patronising comments here and elsewhere that suggest the writers still think of RP as a rather quaint backwater that is lucky to be blessed with the presence of a rich well-educated guest from the first world. I find such attitudes repugnant and would like to express in the most practical way I can, to my Filipino family and the local community, that I’m here for good, for better or worse, and wish only to be accepted as one of them.
Ingat, Ken
Ken I think you make a very good point about placing yourself in a position to “giving a whole-hearted commitment to my new homeland.” I believe that is one of the things that in general make a significant number of immigrants successful – come hell or high-water, they are in it for the long haul and there is no going back.
Hi Gary – the idea of having immigrated here and wanting to give the Philippines my all is exactly my thinking. I think of myself much like my ancestors who came to the USA from Ireland, became US Citizens and lived a good life. I see nothing wrong with that, and it is who I think I am too, just in a different way.
Ken – Your thinking on this and mine are very similar. I like the things you say, and could say them myself without reservation.
One thing I’m not sure I agree with is the soundness in the reasoning of
“The practical reason… Philippines would not be the first country in the world to decide that foreigners are no longer welcome if it suited the political climate of the day… it’s by no means guaranteed that the Filipino government of the day would side with the US. At least if I am a citizen, they can’t kick me out.”
Granted, you probably would not be kicked out. Where would they kick you out to? You’d be stateless. Even if you were dual nationality, they might have no legal basis to kick you out. But if the political climate deteriorated to the point where all Americans are rounded up and deported, whose to say that former Americans who are now Filipino citizens would be left alone? They may inter all former Americans, or continuously harass them, or who knows what.
I’m just thinking that if you are going to use, as part of the decision process, the possibility that someday Americans may be officially unwelcome, you may want to consider all the possible outcomes.
I can assure you that is no part of my decision making process. I did not bring up the point. The only reason it was included in the discussion is because some who commented brought it up.
I didn’t think so really. My comment was directed more to Ken’s comment. I agree with the part about making a commitment. Just thought the reasoning behind unwelcome foreigners might not be fully thought out.
Bob:
Because of the lack of clarity from the US government, I have serious reservations that dual citizenship would be possible… It may very well be the case. BUT, I have a suspicion that going that route can cause umpteen problems in the future, and cost an extravagant amount in attorney’s fees. Keep in mind, that if you are incorrect in your belief, it could be very costly to straighten things out.
I’ve known a couple of people who have renounced US citizenship… When you renounce, it is virtually impossible to re-obtain. In fact, when I was at University, one of the professors there renounced her US citizenship and obtained Mexican citizenship as an anti-trade protest. She was denied a visa to return for her father’s funeral, a big stink was made, and the head of immigration at that time got on the local news and effectively stated that she gave up her rights and was no different than any other Mexican citizen. Due to her circumstances, it is safe to assume that her application for a visa went straight to the bottom of the pile. Another person I know obtained Bahamian citizenship as a protest about a bad divorce ruling… Same situation.
In this day and age of paranoia in the States, such an act effectively places you on the “traitor” list somewhere…and getting off such a list may be damn nigh impossible. I don’t know about you, but I have little faith that DHS, the NSA, or the FBI are ever on the side of any American, much less a foreign national (As you would then be considered).
Since nobody knows the future, and your kids are US citizens, the need to someday travel to the US may present itself, and you really don’t want to close those options permanently.
There are many ways to express love for your adoptive home: Indeed, by maintaining this website, you are doing just that. Your Christmas giveaway is yet another expression of that love.
It is, perhaps, one of the most personal decisions that anyone can make, an no-one has the right to judge you for that decision. Indeed, for those who commented about “paid for in blood” and so on, they should remember that the US is a nation of immigrants and that each of those people made their own choice. There is nothing wrong with choosing to ally with a country where you live and are happy. But that decision is serious and you have to live with the consequences of that decision, whatever they may ultimately be.
Hi John – If I were to choose to renounce my US citizenship, I don’t think that it would have an effect on my kids or their ability to go wherever they choose. They are dual citizens right now, and no action that I take should change that one way or another. Although I don’t argue that it could see me wind up on some list somewhere or another… I don’t think of myself as a traitor either. I love the USA, but I am feeling more and more that the Philippines is my home, and something I may want to do is make that permanent, more than just as an immigrant here.
Bob: It wouldn’t impact your kids at all… They are citizens and can make their own decisions once they are of age.
I probably didn’t state it really clearly, but since they are US citizens, they might, under their own free will, choose to live, work, or go to school in the States, and, should that situation occur, there may be a real need or desire in the future for you to travel there… That’s all I meant.
I don’t see you as a traitor either, but what you or I believe doesn’t matter the same as what those with the guns and the power think.
Hi John – Yes, you have a point about the fact that the kids may end up in the USA someday, I have considered that. I would expect that one or more of them probably will end up spending at least some time in the States.
The guys with the guns and power may think what they wish, but I personally doubt that they would have any interest or desire in coming to the Philippines to put me “in line” with their thinking, if you know what I mean. I would think that to them, I am pretty inconsequential. 😉
It is a hard decision for me, though, I must say.
Bob, that is quite a decision to make. I know you have thought things through. But I would like to think, although you love the Philippines very much, deep down inside, you are still very much American and it is still your home. But as the previous comments here say, one day the government may say no more foreigners. Where would you go if you did not have your USA citizenship?
John the point is that if you are a Filipino citizen you are no longer a foreigner. You wouldn’t have to go anywhere; you just stay home.
Hi John – If I become a Philippine citizen, and someday the Philippines doesn’t allow any more foreigners it would not matter… I’d be Filipino, not foreigner, and they could not make me leave then, because I would be a citizen.
If you ever had to come back to the USA, just do what millions already do, be a TNT!.
Ha ha.. you gotta get there first before you can go TNT, though.
Just curious Bob I notice that there is a Manny Villar Banner on your site. Is that paid or your sites endorsement of his candidacy.
Sheesh, richard… I have been clear so many times. No, I will not endorse any candidate. Legally, a foreigner cannot do that. Villar is paying Google to place ads on websites. I am in no way connected with it.
well it’s there and that is FACT!!! Google or not!
Of course it is there. I just said that Google AdSense placed it there. It is not my endorsement. Manny Villar paid to put it on the site. Manny pays Google, Google pays me. So what? I do not endorse him, nor do I have anything to say about his suitability to be President. I simply get paid for having his ad on my site. It’s simple, richard.
Hi Bob
Like Paul I see very little gain or reasoning, to trade my citizenship to the Philippines my house and lot are in both are names
and our business will be to, the downside would be when I want to visit my mom or kids I would have to apply for a visa, and possibly be denied, and I don’t know if they will have Social Security 15 years from now, but if they do I want my share of what I paid in all these years, for me the minus out way the pluses
Hi james – it is a personal choice. My desire has nothing to do with owning land, owning a business or anything of the sort. I simply feel more of a connection to the Philippines, and am feeling more of a desire to be a citizen of the country. There is nothing beyond that. In fact, becoming a citizen would actually cost me money (I’d have to start paying Philippine taxes and such), so it is certainly not a monetary decision.
By the way, james… how can your house and business by in both of your names? You cannot legally own either here.
It did not say google sponsored! nor more than your SAMAL land for sale doesn’t say Google so that is not very clear at all and a very fair question.
Richard – it is not Google “sponsored” nor did I ever say it was Google sponsored. Google is the advertising agency that Manny Villar pays to distribute the ad. I am a publisher that Google pays to place the ad on my site.
Your sites Google ads say “Ads by Google” on the bottom. Villar’s doesn’t. That’s why I had the confusion.
Some Google ads say “Ads by Google” but not all of them.
No again I am not trying to call you on the table just interested in your travels and what draws you here versus other countries you have visited. Logically a person that only visits one country has nothing else to compare it to. I mean if a person asks you to give him reasons why Philippines is better to live in than say Thailand you I guess would not be equipped to give tham a objective answer if say you never visted Thailand. Sorry about the 3rd degree. Must be the virgo in me. Or the Ahole that resides in me as well.
I think it’s probably the a-hole, richard.
You just don’t give a guy a break LOL I thought it was more the virgo
Richard- take a deep breath buddy !! You’ll not only live longer but you will enjoy doing so also !! lol
Ian thank you for the advice. Actually I have fun here regardless and I don’t get stressed here on the site. I am clearly in the minority with my views at least based on public opinion expressed here and that is fine by me because deep down I know many share my opinions about this emotionally challenging country. Anyway, bottom line I enjoy the site and Bob despite my serious differences with him about this country and a host of other subjects LOL.
Hi Bob the land deed is in my wifes name and my name is on it to I have seen it with my own eyes, that dosnt meen alot, I know I have know claim to it, but so far the last 3 years have been good so I will continue to trust my wife, for me the main reasons for keeping my U.S citazenship is if I burnt that bridge and my mom or children became sick I would want to get on a plane and go, without getting caught up in red tape, but like you said it is a personal decision and I respect your reasons
Hi James – Yes, the deed can say “Maria dela Cruz, Filipino, married to James Smith, American” or something like that, but it, as you say, gives no ownership or rights to the American.
I trust my wife 100%, as I have said things like land ownership have no bearing on my possible desire to get Philippine Citizenship. I have no problem with you wanting to keep your US citizenship. I said when I moved here, and for many years after that that I would never want to be a Filipino Citizen. However, after a number of years, my thinking began changing a bit. I still have not decided, and may not decide for sure for some time.
Hi Bob
whatever your desicion is I am sure it will be best for you and your family the Philippines is a great place to raise a family, I plan to spend the rest of my life there, Good luck my freind.
Thank you james! I am sure that you will enjoy a great life in the Philippines as well!
‘Filipinos are about the rudest …’
That’s just an amazing thing to say. It’s so far removed from my experience, or (as far as I can tell) from the reported experience of other people that I’m at a loss to understand how anyone can seriously believe it.
Like many other Asian cultures, the dominant value here is smooth interpersonal relations. Rudeness is utterly alien to normal behaviour, sometimes to the detriment of good communication.
Unless of course one sees rudeness in not being treated with the deference that one believes is due to one’s superior station in life … certainly Filipinos regard being mayabang as a very bad way to behave.
I really am with you on this, Ken. I see some behaviors here that are different than I would experience in the States, or elsewhere in the west, and perhaps some consider that to be rude. However, the people of the Philippines have to be among the kindest people in the world, IMHO and my experience.
On the subject of rudeness, a Filipino, the newpaper columnist and TV talk show host (and grandson of the first president of the Philippines) Manuel Quezon III stated on his TV show three or so years ago that an international survey had ranked the Philippines as the second rudest country among those surveyed. Quezon agreed with the survey and cited examples of why. So it’s not just supercilious foreigners (and some LIP members) who have problems with some behaviours here.
Don:
Do you still remember what examples of Filipino rudeness that Manuel Quezon cited? The only rudeness that I’ve experienced in the Philippines has been loud partying, but I ascribe this to the fact that many people are crammed into a small space with thin walls (90 million people in a land area about the size of Arizona).
If you add up all my trips to the Philippines over the years, I have not yet spent a year in the Philippines. But I’d go so far as to say that I encounter more rudeness every day in Washington DC than I have in all those months in the Philippines.
I remember having a credit card problem on my very first visit to the Phils. Everyone in the Philippines was very helpful and polite (I think Filipinos go out of their way to be extra polite to foreigners). The only rudeness I encountered was when I called the bank back in the States. I thought to myself at the time “Wow! The only culture shock I experienced on this trip was when I had to call home.”
Well, it’s a big world out there, and everyone can have a different experience.
Hi Peter – I am also interested in hearing what MLQ said about the rudeness. I hope Don can share more about that.
One issue would be giving up the blue passport. Right now we can go just about anywhere. As a Filipino that would change.
Indeed, Joe. That is one of the things I have been considering.
“Everyone in the Philippines was very helpful and polite (I think Filipinos go out of their way to be extra polite to foreigners). The only rudeness I encountered was when I called the bank back in the States. I thought to myself at the time “Wow! The only culture shock I experienced on this trip was when I had to call home.” – Peter McHare, a fellow Washingtonian
Hi, Peter:
What you may not have known was when you called your “bank back in the States’, your call was routed to a call center located somewhere in the Philippines, and you were speaking to a Filipino. Joke lang, Peter. LOL
Hi ProfDon – I just did some searching of MLQ’s website, and could not find anything on this topic. He is a friend, though, perhaps I’ll ask him one of these days about this and see what he has to say about it.
Sorry, my wife watched this broadcast when she was in Manila the night that she was departing to the US to meet me. So she was not scecific. Recently I met a Canadian who had also watched the broadcast and just happened to mention it. I emailed to Quezon asking him for a reference (since he had cited some study), but no reply.
In one of Quezon’s columns several years ago he wrote about a karaoke that had opened across the street from a favorate raodside restaurant in Laguna and how he would no longer go there to eat. He did not mention the even more severe negative effects on the owner’s business and on all the people around.
Hi Bob – I’m on “Philippine Time” arriving late to this party! (Had a 10 hour internet outage today 🙁 )
Do it. Don’t do it. Do it. Don’t do it. Do it. Don’t do it. She loves me. She loves me not. Oh, wait a minute there. 😆
Some of the things that I’ve come across in researching my article I withheld – sort of like aces in the hole. They would have added to the confusion the series might have prompted if I had mentioned them.
The USA does recognize dual-citizenship and will allow a current citizen to obtain citizenship in another country. (You and many readers already know that.) The problem, as you pointed out in your article here, is having to renounce all other allegiances, royal personages and titles, and any other solid connections to other countries when you state your naturalization oath here.
Here’s the “official” word with regard to this dilenma:
“ADMINISTRATIVE STANDARD OF EVIDENCE
“As already noted, the actions listed above can cause loss of U.S. citizenship only if performed voluntarily and with the intention of relinquishing U.S. citizenship. The Department has a uniform administrative standard of evidence based on the premise that U.S. citizens intend to retain United States citizenship when they obtain naturalization in a foreign state, subscribe to a declaration of allegiance to a foreign state, serve in the armed forces of a foreign state not engaged in hostilities with the United States, or accept non-policy level employment with a foreign government.”
http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html
So, if you do not intend to relinquish your U.S. citizenship, even though your naturalization oath has you say words to that effect, the US Government will continue to consider you a citizen, and a dual-citizen at that.
An additional tidbit left out of the article – there is a “backdoor” method of obtaining Philippine citizenship through a formal declaration of it being so by the Philippine legislature. One would think that a well-known Phil-phile such as MindanaoBob could easily obtain one of those tickets! 😆
Hi Paul – Yes, I was also aware of the backdoor method that you suggested, but I don’t think the legislature will be recognizing me. 😆
You raise some interesting points to consider, Paul. Thanks for sharing your research.
Hey Bob – I either just had an epiphany, or a bad caffiene bounce. But . . . .
“having to renounce all other allegiances, royal personages and titles, and any other solid connections to other countries when you state your naturalization oath here” is a quote from above. Now, just what is the purpose of doing these things?
I now consider (and am close to believing) that such renunciations make it impossible for you, as a Philippine citizen (or a dual citizen) to use an excuse like:
“Well, I’m a foreigner” or “I’ll go to my embassy” – it removes such claims from allowable defenses for certain acts that could be thought criminal or prosecutable; or
“You’ll address me as Viscount MindanaoBob” – it removes the ability to intimidate “fellow citizens” or assuage problematic things like waiting in line, etc.
or other such claims. Nothing to do with what might be elsewhere in the world – you are put onto the Philippine citizen “level playing field” by the renunciations.
Once again, this is another train of thought that’s on the same tracks as those stating that you can only lose your USA citizenship by doing specific things with the USA, not by doing specific things with the Philippines.
Mmm. That coffee sure was good this morning.
Hi Paul – Interesting thoughts. To be honest, in the past 10 years of living here, though, I can’t remember using excuses like “Well, I’m a foreigner.” Also, I’ve never set foot at the US Embassy in my life! 😆
Epiphany ? I hear that enemas are good for taking care of them ! lol
Hi Bob
A lot of interesting points here. But, it all boils down to one things, doesn’t it. What do you want to do? What does your heart say? But, since you seem to have reservations, don’t do it until you can honestly say to yourself: I am a Filipino. This is my country. I am not an American. At that point, it is an easy decision.By the way, what does Feyma and the kids say about this?
The only problem I have with imigrants to Canada are the ones who come here and don’t want to become Canadian. They want Canada to change to suit the values and traditions of their home country.
Are you Filipino or an American living in the PI? Only you can answer that. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best.
Hi Allan – Honestly, something you said struck a nerve. I can’t, as of right now, say “I’m a Filipino” – it just does not sound right. Hmm… raises some additional thinking! 😉 Thanks for helping me.
Funny, because it reminds me that, despite the fact that I write my actual nationality on each and every renewal form, my Philippine driver’s license continues to say “Citizenship: Filipino”. Go figure. Maybe it’s because I’ve been here so long and submit forms without a “fixer” but with some polite Tagalog banter that they ignore the shape of my nose?
Reading all the comments, already knowing the reality, I’m long resigned to just waiting until someday maybe the Philippines will condescend to allow me true citizenship. Meanwhile I have all the benefits that really matter, and our 4 kids (born here) are automatically dual citizens. That to me is all that really matters.
Bob,
Obviously you have touhed a nerve in many of us. When I moved to Canada in 1975 I thought, why not become a Canadian citizen? But in the end, I was born and American and the country has treated me well.
As to your problem, there seems to be a legal issue and a moral/integrity issue. Even if you could retain dual citizenship when taking Philippine citizenship (as Paul shows can be done, above), i thought the point of becoming a Filipino citizen was to show loyalty and solidarity with the country and people. strang way to do it if you have the itension of violating the spirit and letter of the “I renounce” requirement for becoming a citizen. I am NOT saying this is your intension, but something to bear in mind.
On the practical side, if you well and truly renounce your US citizenship, as pointed out, you may very well have substantial difficulties in getting a US visa to visit. Yes, you say you have no intnesion of visiting, but: seeing your mother brefore she dies or attending her funeral? seeing one of your children graduate from college or get married there? And what about traveling:P same grief as Filipinos in going to Europe, India and so on? Seems a big cost to me, but you may have to bear these costs givien your obvious morality/integrity.
Hi Prof Don & Bob – There appears to be a lot of confusion, which would be expected, on this citizenship issue. I’ve taken some notes, and hopefully this will shed a little light:
– You do not have to renounce your USA citizenship as part of a process to obtain citizenship in another country. (My “provocative” series was on USA citizenship renunciation alone, not on obtaining citizenship elsewhere.)
– Naturalization procedures and oaths that are required in the Philippines affect Philippine citizen status alone, and have no bearing on USA citizenship. The USA Government (State Department) determines who is and who isn’t an USA citizen, no one else.
– While there are acts that can potentially expatriate the USA citizen who performs them, the final decision on whether or not expatriation truly occurs will stem from the desire of the USA citizen to renounce USA citizenship and well as performing those acts voluntarily.
– Under the Administrative Standard of Evidence employed by the USA Government, the State Department’s standard is uniformly based on the premise that the USA citizen obtaining foreign citizenship intends to retain USA citizenship, unless that citizen signifies that he/she wants to relinquish USA citizenship (by going through the steps required to renounce citizenship).
– There are very few acts that a USA citizen can perform that will result in his/her losing USA citizenship:
1) formerly renounce USA citizenship in front of a US consular officer;
2) serve in the armed forces of a foreign state engaged in hostilities with the USA;
3) take a policy level position in a foreign state government;
4) be convicted of treason; or
5) perform “an act made potentially expatriating by statute accompanied by conduct which is so inconsistent with retention of U.S. citizenship that it compels a conclusion that the individual intended to relinquish U.S. citizenship.”
– When it comes to allegiance, faithfulness, etc., a dual citizen can be at peace with him/herself and with the world in the same manner that a sports fanatic supports a football team in his home town and a basketball team in another town because his town is lacking. There is no ethical or moral dilenma in having dual citizenship. (You just have more love to express than one country alone can take!)
– With respect to the above, the naturalization oath’s renunciation is a traditional and customary method of showing desire to become a citizen of a land other than the one from which you originate. It is an expression of filiation with your new country, not an expression of disdain for your original country. There is no shame or sorrow in accomplishing such.
Hope that helps. 😉
Hi Paul – I believe there is some compatibility in the laws of the two countries. The Philippines only says that you must “say these words”. They do not require you to go fill out any papers with the US Embassy, or pass any tests to make sure what you are doing is what you want. You must say these words only. The US law says that you must do all of these other things to renounce. I believe that you may satisfy the requirements of each country without violating the letter or spirit of the law.
Hi ProfDon – For me, I don’t think that “the country has treated me well” is enough reason to justify keeping citizenship. It is a reason to be added in with others, but not enough on it’s own. I mean, of all of the countries I have been to, as far as I can remember, each of them has “treated me well” but I am not interested in becoming a citizen of any of them, but 1.
well I would never give up my us passport or citizenship . but not to be a jerk , even if you became a filipino ! there will be a percentage of the native filipinos who will always consider and treat you like a Kano and never except you as one of them ,when push comes to shove the filipino is going to always think of you as a foreigner even if you are a filipino citizen. why bother you are a perm resident your kids and wife are dual. and if you need to get out of there someday because of politics you will be stuck . I can for see a day coming when ex pats wont be allowed to come back to the usa if they stay away to long. immigration is going to tighten up .because of these series of us citizens and there failed and successful terrorist attempts and the Philippines (especially Mindanao)will be watched carefully just like Pakistan is going to be from now on. just my opinion not yet fact!
Hi mike – Oh, I think that 99% of Filipinos would still consider me a foreigner, regardless of my citizenship. I have no doubt about that.
BTW, as I stated earlier – my wife is not a dual citizen… not sure where you got that idea.
It is not possible that the USA could stop expats from returning to the country. A country cannot deny entry to it’s own citizen!
Just a minor point I’m unclear on then Bob, and I ask out of interest for our own situation rather than simply nosiness. When you say that Feyma is not a dual citizen, do you mean that she has not reapplied for her Filipino citizenship following her return to the Phils.? And if that is the case, In who’s name is the properties or land that you own in the Philippines? Or is it the case that an ex Filipino can own land up to a certain value, or some other specific conditions. I have long had my concerns about this, as Vangie has not reapplied for her Filipino citizenship either.
Also, I’d like to say that I fully understand your “torture” on this decision. As one individual said, it would certainly not make any difference to the vast majority of Filipino’s, who would continue to regard you as a foreigner in all respects. On the other hand though, it would have been quite fun on your recent visit to the Barangay Captain in your dispute with the neighbours to be able to say “What foreigner???? There are no foreigners involved in this dispute!!” I’d quite have liked a ringside seat to see that one actually.
Well, good luck with whatever decision you make anyway.
Hi Jim – Under Philippine Law, a former Philippine Citizen can own up to 1,000 Square Meters in a City, or up to 1 Hectare outside the City. The property we own in Samal is 900+ square meters, so it is within the law.
Yeah, the situation you describe with the Barangay Captain meeting comes to mind, and would make for a hilarious situation, no doubt! 😉
I suppose it’s all relative. The local Barangay Captain (well knowing who I am), never ever asks me what my citizenship is. Last time there he was quite happy when I attended to resolve a dispute my wife had with someone, where I walked in, exchanged polite Tagalog banter, answered him “no dispute, here’s the resolution agreement” (which I drafted and printed 4 copies). They added the obligatory “prepared by (Barangay official)”, everyone signed, everyone was happy, customary minor donation to the Barangay made, and the captain joked with me how he needed to set up his temporary replacement while he went on a trip for a week.
They don’t make citizenship an issue and I don’t either. Works just fine for me.
What am I really saying? There’s the “legal” and there’s the “practical”. Approach and acceptance in the community makes citizenship a non-issue. If the community and the Barangay accept you as Pinoy when it matters, it’s all good.
Bob, You have a personal decision to make and I know that by writing this you are in effect collaborating these thoughts with others. In the end its a decision that you alone will make. I know you will make whatever decision is best in all regards for yourself and family. MY response will be to continue to be your friend and nothing in my life changes. Good Luck. Ron
Thank you Ron. I appreciate your kindness.
Hi Bob,
There are lots of opinions here as I can see… If I was in your situation I would try to get Filipino citizenship not just for undying love for Philippines but more for practical reasons. You have been there for a long to time already and it became your home, there is no reason for you to feel foreigner until rest of your life there and fear that you might be kicked out of you new home for any number of reasons in the future. You are doing enough for the benefit of the Philippines (this web), employ Filipinos, etc.
I would newer, however, again for practical reasons give up US citizenship just because of possible benefits to you (easier travel, possible source of pension).
Just because Filipino legislature requires you to say that you are renouncing your US citizenship to make bureaucrats happy, so be it. I don’t believe for a second that it would affect status of your US citizenship (there is bit of paperwork and fees involved, before they would let you go, I myself had to renounce citizenship of one European country to become citizen of other European country in the past).
What I have just said does not bother my conscience at all, my life thought me that we don’t live in Utopian world where everything is fair and square. Experience thought me to have deep distrust to all politicians who should (ideally) represent my interest (as a citizen) in government. The fact is that all laws and regulations are for benefit of those sitting in government and myself, I am just a source of money (taxes) for them. As I have stated before, I don’t own anything to anyone, I have paid (and still do) my dues and if I decide to live my life in certain spot on this planet I should be able to do so.
Hi Marcel – I think that a lot of what you are saying makes sense. The Philippines is indeed my home, and it is the place where I feel most at home.
I am really going to have to give this one a thought. No, not about the citizenship discussion but about Filipinos being rude. Although the duration of my visits are within my passport allowance with no extensions, I have met a lot of people there from many walks of life. I can not remember any instance of anyone being rude to me. For me it was the other way around, at times I really had to restrain myself from comming off rude to them due to differences in the way of living and the culture there. If there was anyone that was rude to me, it may have been in one of the Filipino languages that I am not familiar with although I always had Filipino friends with me that would have told me about it later on. Possibly they may be rude to eachother in their language, but I can not recall even one instance where anyone was rude to me. I remember small details and I am sure if that had happened I would have remembered it.
Hi Bob – I have seen incidences of rudeness here, but it is rare. I think what richard is talking about are things like people cutting in lines and such, and yes, it does happen. But, it’s been a long time since that has happened to me.
In short, I agree, Filipinos are invariably NOT rude to me, quite the opposite.
In situations where there’s some dispute, I sometimes find myself striving to match the Pinoy standard of face-to-face politeness.
I see now that a second person has used the word “integrity” in discussing Bob’s decision. Integrity to me means that when you look at yourself in the mirror in the morning and feel good about yourself- then you have integrity. Fulfilling the needs or demands of polaticians and bureaucrats is not the test of morality/integrity.
Its so easy to sit on the sidelines and comment on Bob’s integrity, but in all of his posts I have never once heard him say anything that put his integrity into question !! Disagree with him at times? Absolutely ! Think his opinion is crazy on occasion? Absolutely! But lack of morality/integrity ?? NEVER !!
Thanks for that, ian…. err… I think! 😆
didnt want your head to explode Bob ! haha
Bob,
I wouldn’t give up my Canadian citizenship in order to become a citizen of The RP, then again, I don’t have to. This is what confuses me about the arrangement between The U.S.A. & other countries. Canada has a reciprocal arrangement with most countries, including the U.S.A. and The Philippines.
I have family in California & life-long friends in Texas. In each case, they seem to have citizenship in both The U.S.A. and Canada. In fact, one of my friends in Texas is a former D.A. and is one of “America’s super lawyers”(whatever that means) and, still, has a satellite office in Ireland & has performed legal work, in Canada.
In the relationship between Canada & The RP – a fairly recent agreement – my wife takes her Philippine’s citizenship oath in about three weeks & I will be submitting my papers in the near future.
If it is not possible to have dual citizenship – RP/USA – perhaps, rather than taking such a serious step as changing citizenship, you and like-minded individuals should try to petition the U.S. Government to change the status quo. There doesn’t seem to be a better time to attempt this than with the present administration.
Personally, I can not think of a more difficult decision for one to contemplate. Best of luck with it.
Mike2
Hi Mike – The arrangement between USA/Philippines and Canada/Philippines is no different. My wife and your wife are exactly the same, they can obtain dual citizenship easily. However, if YOU want to gain Philippine Citizenship, the Philippine Government REQUIRES you to give up your Canadian Citizenship. This has nothing to do with US law, this has to do with the fact that the Philippines requires anybody to GIVE UP their former citizenship if they wish to be naturalized. In our wives’ cases, it is different, because they are not becoming naturalized, they are reacquiring the citizenship that they gave up, and the law is different. The agreement between US and Philippines is exactly the same as Canada – in our wive’s cases.
Bob- you say that the Phil govt requires you to ” give up your Cdn/US citizenship” in order to get Phil citizenship. I’m wondering if that is indeed the case ? I know for sure that they require you to renounce your Canadian/US citizenship, but I would argue that those are two different things .
Maybe someone has addressed this already? Its hard to follow all the posts coz they dont come in chronologically
Sorry about the semantics, Ian… they require you to renounce your citizenship.
Bob- I’m not just trying to be argumentative – legally it makes a huge difference. [ like the “i divorce you” example I used earlier]
If all the Phil govt requires is that you say the words, even though they are aware that they actually have no affect , then you get to eat your cake and to eat it too.
As I said before to me it is NOT a matter of morality or of integrity- it IS a matter of semantics.
Hi Ian – I did not think you were being argumentative, I was only clarifying the wording because my previous statement was semantically incorrect. That’s all.. no worries…
Bob,
Okay, I now understand the dilemna. My wife has held a Philippine passport, despite becoming a Canadian citizen &, though she is now “officially” being repatriated, she has updated her passport over the years with no issues. I’d probably follow this same system, keeping a Canadian passport, regardless of any oath I swore in The RP for citizenship. Still, I can understand that this is not a perfect solution & suggest that we should consider petitioning the RP for reciprocity, perhaps, with the support of our own governments? Now you have me thinking, so I think I’ll write a few letters, make a few calls & see what happens.
No, I should have been specific regarding my paperwork. This is for an immigrant visa.
Certainly, if RP citizenship is unattainable without giving up my present citizenship, I wouldn’t consider it. The benefits of Canadian citizenship far outweigh that of Philippines citizenry, in my humble opinion.
LOL, I’ll just have to be nice to my wife until she’s too old to find a replacement!
Mike2
OK, so you are not filing for citizenship, but for permanent residency. Ha ha.. I already have that, have had it for more than 10 years. Citizenship is entirely different, though.
By the way, Mike – I don’t understand how you can be submitting your papers for Philippine citizenship in the near future. You do not qualify for Philippine citizenship. You don’t live in the Philippines. The Philippine law requires that you must be residing here, and have been a permanent resident here for a minimum of 5 years (10 if you are not married to a Filipino). Also, you must speak the language (Tagalog, Cebuano, or some other Philippine language). Perhaps you meet that requirement, I don’t know. But, I am quite sure that you don’t live here. Maybe I’m missing something. If you can show me how you qualify to become a Philippine Citizen “in the near future” I would love to know.
Bob,
If I had read all of the discussion, I would have understood the situation better, prior to having made a post. As some of the comments seemed more a disagreement over alleged political endorsements, etc., I skipped some of it. Shame on me! As far as requirements for citizenship, I do actually speak and can write some Tagalog & Bisayan( even know some songs that I play on guitar), however, I will – as you point out – have 5 years to improve these skills. Heck, I learned a lot of Mandarin in a couple of years & can speak Spanish, well, so how hard could it be?(lol)
If there is a real benefit to obtaining Philippine citizenship, why not? If no real benefit, why would you?
Mike2
Hi Mike – Benefits and Detriments are in the eyes of the person who is considering making the change. I see pluses and minuses. That’s why I am having a hard time deciding.
Yeah, Bob, that is my point. Can you share those considerations with us, or are they personal? I’ve given this some thought myself and came to the conclusion that, for myself, I could not yet see the benefits of making the move as outweighing those that the alternative allows for. However, as you have been there for a considerable period of time, you have experiences/observances which someone like myself will only experience/notice in time. Obviously, some of your experiences/observations would be based on your own specific character & situation, while others may be more universal.
Mike2
Hi Mike – The reasons are very personal, but not in the sense that I don’t want to share. What I mean is that it is a very personal choice for me to make. I am not looking at it in a way of how to get benefits. My heart is telling me more and more that I want to be a citizen of the Philippines. I want to be more of an “official” member of Philippine society. I am feeling less and less connected to the USA. I still love the USA, I am not anti-USA. These are some reasons why my heart is really torn on this issue right now.
Bob, Well written and I can feel your angst in your words. Not that the US is any better than anything else…but it is your homeland. Stick with it. Whatever you choose will be the right thing for you and your family. There! My first post on LIP…I think?…Maybe second…lol…be well
Thank you Eric for your comment. I think it was actually your second! 😀
If a person gives up their U.S. citizenship…….And becomes a Philippines citizen……Can you still get your monthly social security check……….After you are no longer a U.S. citizen
Hi Mi$ter dinar – I am too young to collect Social Security (I’m 48), so I really don’t know. It is not really something that concerns me, to be honest.
Hi Bob- First I am surprised that you brought up such a personal issue on a public forum as I would have thought the issue concerned only you Feyma and your children.However you obviously are not 100% sure as to which way to go for the longer term best.One thing is for sure at some stage in your family history your forefathers gave up their original citizenship to become Americans now you face that same decision.
Whatever you decide all the best.
Regards.
Jim.
Over the last 2 generations Canada and the US were both colonized by people from Europe who had hard decisions to make- in deciding to move or not . [ The Australians less so ! Of course they got a free ride !lol]
And when one finds a new home, where one feels comfortable, and feels an allegiance to, and knows in their heart that they want to live there for the rest of their lives, then at some point they mayhave to decide about whether or not to change their citizenship.
Of course they feel loyalty towards the land where they grew up and that gave them the freedom to move and to chose, but at the same time there is a feeling that their new home deserves their loyalty equally as much- if not more. And if they chose to change their citizenship it doesnt mean that they no longer love the land that they came from, it just means that they are making a statement about their new home. In effect what they are saying is ” this is my home now and I am willing to demonstrate my dedication to such move” . And how more able to do so than by taking out new citizenship.
I am not at all surprised by Bob’s discussing this matter in public. He obviously still has some doubts and things to work out in his own head- things which he has openly discussed. And so he seeks guidance,input,suggestions,pros and cons etc from as many other people as possible so that when he does ultimately make the decision he will feel that he has done his due diligence as best as he could
Hi ian – Exactly! As I explained to Jim, my ancestors followed this same path when they migrated to America, and eventually became citizens. I am on that same path, and just am trying to get my brain around the idea if I should take the last step or not. I feel a strong loyalty to the USA, yet my loyalty to the Philippines, and my love of the Philippines grows a bit each day. Discussing it here on LiP helps me hear ideas that others might have, and that will help me make up my mind.
Hi Jim – Off all of the discussion on this article, you are the first to very squarely hit the nail on the head in regards to my thought process. My forefathers came to America and eventually became citizens of the USA. I am feeling that I am kind of part of the same process that they went through. I came to a new homeland, struggled to accept how things are here and to become at peace with my choice of a new homeland. Now, I am debating if I should take that last step and finalize and officially become a part of the land in which I make my home now.
Hi Bob!
I would not risk the conflicting interpretations though. It may be true that US law or jurisprudence (which I do not claim to be aware of) says that you would have to do something more than just renounce US citizenship to lose citizenship, but in interpreting any law I think there is wisdom in always leaning towards the stricter interpretation.
We, practicing lawyers and laymen, cannot make an interpretation of the law or jurisprudence no matter how knowledgeable we claim to be. The Supreme Court of any country can end up making a strict verbatim interpretation of the law and any present interpretation or otherwise is just water under the bridge.
I would not risk losing your US citizenship by swearing an oath of allegiance to the Philippines. Even before the Dual Citizenship law, swearing an oath of allegiance to another country (like the US) was viewed as renouncing Philippine citizenship. The Dual Citizenship law is a creature of legislation and is even a little askew with the Philippine Constitution. In some future time somebody might even end up challenging its constitutionality.
What I am saying is it would be risky to hope you always get the favorable interpretation. If you really want to be a Philippine Citizen, you have to be prepared to lose your US citizenship because it is a possiblity and not a remote one. Interpretations are always tenuous and I would not rely on it no matter how good you think your lawyer is.
You have to ask yourself the question what do you stand to lose by losing your US citizenship? And better yet, what does your family stand to lose by your losing your US citizenship?
Claudette said ” We, practicing lawyers and laymen, cannot make an interpretation of the law or jurisprudence no matter how knowledgeable we claim to be ” .
Sorry but I’m confused Claudette. You can be a practising lawyer- or a layman- but not both.
And as a lawyer I totally disagree with you that that I can not make an interpretatin of the law or jurisprudence- in fact thats what I was trained to do- and paid to do. To suggest that I cant advise a client about a legal matter unless I first consult with the Supreme Court is of course just silly.
Thanks for offering your analysis, Claudette.
“I know that a lot of readers will think that I would be stupid to become a Philippine Citizen. I can already hear it – “what is the benefit?” ” Well, for me the benefit is that I love the Philippines, and I have a desire to “make it official” – if you know what I mean.
-i know exactly what you mean…i hope you get your dual citizenship.
its very rare to see a foreigner, especially an american to actually have that much love for the philippines like you do, and not ashamed to tell the world about it, even to the point of wanting to be naturalized. Thanks for seeing the good in the country that sadly most filipinos themselves have failed to see…and for simply loving it.I was rebuked by your love for the philippines…im a filipino and sometimes i am even the first one to criticize my country instead of the first one to be proud of it…but i still love my country and still proud of it, its just that sometimes, i forget.. thanks for reminding!.may GBless you w/ wisdom!
Thank you very much, yelena. I appreciate your perspective!
Yelena, Bob is not alone in his desire for Philippine citizenship.
We’ve however all researched and know Philippine law on this point, and that thus it just can’t be practically accomplished. We must accept that and be the best Filipinos even if we can’t become legal citizens.
Hopefully some day Philippine law will accept us, the same as our countries of origin accept Filipinos.
Hi Guys & Gals:
Here are a couple of address’s that can be perused to help people make decisions about citizenship. I have referenced David MacGregor before in dealing with being a sovereign individual. If you are a member you can access all of his information which some of it deals with renouncing USA citizenship and also how a USA citizen can hold dual citizenship.
I can understand where Bob is coming from. Here in the USA our personal freedoms are being ever eroded, and the advent of a cradle to grave society is greatly accelerating that misguided ideal. Bottom line is a country that is strong enough to take care of it’s citizens every needs is strong enough to take away all of your personal rights, and become bankrupt during the interim. Greece is a prime example of this and how that kind of thinking is faulty and will always fail. The problem with this propaganda is that you always run out of other peoples money. Don’t believe me,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, take a very close look at Greece!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.scribd.com/doc/30923462/American-Expatriation-Guide
http://sovereignlife.com/blog/?paged=2
Hi Bob – Quite a topic of discussion!
Noticed that there’s a lot of “exclusive this or that,” and not much “both” being expressed. I’ve 9 more years to learn Ilocano or Filipino (4 if Emy obtains dual-citizenship) if I want citizenship here. Looking at that last sentence, however, I see that word “or.” It seems to limit the expansion of my knowledge, experience and “all round fun times.”
Comparing being a dual-citizen vis-a-vis being dual-(or multi-) lingual, the big picture starts to come into better focus. Multi-lingual individuals are looked upon with esteem. Why not afford that same esteem for dual-citizens instead of disdain?
Having been called (and, when a guest speaker, introduced as) either a “Pasuquinio by choice” or an “Ilocano by choice” and it feels real good. After all, I did choose where I am after looking at other options. I find my “barangay-mates” enjoy my presence more because I chose to join and be with them. They know I’m a Kano, but treat me like a local – they can accept my “duality.” Why not extend that to the national level: a “Filipino by choice”?
Continued good luck in your journey to a decision. I think I see mine coming up the road!
Hi Paul – I agree with you. No reason why a person considering dual citizenship, or even a change of citizenship (without the dual part) should be looked down upon. Our forefathers changed citizenship when they came to the USA, so there is nothing shameful about changing ourselves. It is a personal choice that only the person involved can decide.
Good luck to you as well in your journey! Start learning that Ilocano!
I’ve been following your citizenship question “a while” Sir Bob. I guess I’ll be dead by the time you make up your mind lol.
I’m 51 now and if I live here in the Pines long enough I’ll probably reach the average Pino life expectancy for a male 58, so you got 7 years to make up your mind lmao.
Through all that I’ve read, only Allen Kelly really nailed it.
You gotta have balls and a lot of courage to come to live in a country like this. Most people leave, poor, war torn, grief stricken, god forsaken and cursed countries to go to new lands of hope and prosperity like the( AUS,USA ), we have actually done the opposite!!!
So until you truly except your new homeland you will battle with your fears and insecurities.
The longer I live here the questions become less important, my heart will be in the Philippines and one day I can see myself saying I’m a Philippino. You keep saying you love the Philippines and one day you might prove it.
I asked my Greek born Dad one day, “Are you Greek or Australian”?
he stood proud and said,
“I’m an AUSTRALIAN”
He proved it,over to you…..
Hi Boss – I have been considering the citizenship thing for about 1 and a half to two years now. I don’t think that is too long to consider something very important like this. As for showing that I really love the Philippines, I think I have done that many times over. I am very close to making my decision, though.
That is something I would never even consider doing, but I do not think poorly of anyone that wants to do it.
I admit when I have to get my attorney to send quarterly taxes to the I.R.S. every quarter in access of $11,000 I get upset. I get upset when I know I have Social Security health benifits that I pay for at the tune of $98 a month and cannot use them. I know I can stop the deduction, but if I do go home I would have to pay all the back monthly fees, plus penalties and interest. I get upset when I would be entitled to use the V.A. Hospital in the States and cannot do so here in Manila because I do not have a service related injury.
If I became a citizen of the Philippines I would have to pay Philippine taxes. If I had dual citizenship I would have to pay taxes to two countries. My U.S. Citizenship is my guarantee that I can go home any time I want and can travel to most all countries in the world without any problems.
No, I served in Vietnam and cannot say I am truly proud of our being there and I am not happy about Iraq, but would never consider giving up my U.S. Citizenship.
I have already served through George Bush and put those horrible days behind me. I have no desire to claim his “clone” Noynoy Aquino my President.
Hi Tom – I certainly understand that Philippine Citizenship is not something most foreigners would do, or even consider. I would imagine that the number who would even think of it is tiny, very tiny. Many of the points that you mention are things that have me in a quandary. It’s certainly not something to decide on a whim! 😉
for todays event… in the blue corner Kuya Bob, Filipino, fighting out of Davao and in the red corner Bob, American fighting out of the USA
that might have been funnier in my head. but, hey, lets see what the judges decide after the 12th round
GROAN !!! haha
😆
The effect of the renunciation is meaningless under U.S. Supreme Court rulings, U.S. law, and U.S. State Department policy. The renouncement without the intention to relinquish citizenship does not lead to a lose of citizenship.
See the State Department Foreign Affairs Manual volume 7 1250.
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/120544.pdf
The relinquishment/loss of U.S. citizenship without intent to do so has been ruled unconstitutional. Specifically, the Supreme Court case of Terrazas dealt with the question of an oath of allegiance to a foreign state in which one was required to renounce current citizenship.
“I therefore hereby expressly renounce ………. citizenship, as well as
any submission, obedience, and loyalty to any foreign government,
especially to that of …………, of which I might have been subject, all
protection foreign to the laws and authorities of Mexico, all rights
which treaties or international law grant to foreigners; and
furthermore I swear adherence, obedience, and submission to the
laws and authorities of the Mexican Republic.”
The blank spaces in the statement were filled in with the words
“Estados Unidos” (United States)
In the Terrazas case the court ruled that the renouncement was meaningless without intent to relinquish citizenship. U.S. law and policy were later amended and changed to conform to the many Supreme Court rulings on the issue of loss of citizenship (or lack of loss of citizenship). Over the years the laws of the U.S. on the issue have done a 180. It used to be that the mere act of naturalizing (even without the renunciation clause) was considered an expatriating act which could result in the loss of U.S. citizenship. I’m guessing that your passports are not confiscated in the Philippines and the applicant for naturalization is not required to renounce before a U.S. consular officer as is the case in some countries. It is common knowledge throughout the world that failure to renounce current citizenship before an official of your own country renders the renouncement meaningless back home in many if not most countries of the world.
The fact that your statement renouncement is meaningless in the U.S. is more than just a mere technicality, it is established law.
Hi David – Thanks for the great info. I would say that it pretty closely matches what I had previously thought.
Have you seen the work by Rich Wales? He’s a non lawyer dual citizen of US/Canada who has done his own research into the subject. It is a goldmine of info.
http://www.richw.org/dualcit/
Hi David – I have not seen it, but will check it out when I have the time.
Bob, I’ve read most but not all of your posts on this thread. I get two things from you regarding the required renunciation statement during the naturalization process.
1. You think it may have some significance in the U.S. and
2. Even if it doesn’t, you are a man of your word and for you at least it has significance.
To respond; you can see for yourself by going over the references that as to the first point there is no legal significance to the renunciation statement. Any difficulty there is a purely personal one you have established your self. Keep the following in mind. In the past, before the evolution of world thought and U.S. law, the mere act of naturalizing was considered a relinquishment of U.S. citizenship! So even if there were no required renunciation statement the naturalization itself would have stripped you of your U.S. citizenship. Thank God and rational thought we have progressed beyond those dark ages!
It is a thought process Bob. Are you thinking the way they thought 200 years ago? Or are you going to fast forward to current day? You will still be a U.S. citizen even after naturalization; and you should conduct yourself as a dual U.S./Pilipino citizen should/would after naturalization. You should still fill out and send in your tax form. Still use your U.S. passport upon entry to the U.S. And do other things consistent with being a U.S. citizen.
And Bob, whether you like it or not, the U.S. (Supreme Court, Law and Policy) views you as a U.S. citizen before, during and following any words of renunciation.
As to point #2 (a man of your word where words mean something). Well Bob, what I have to say about that is do you feel like a U.S. citizen now? If not then you should go and make it official according to U.S. State Dept regs and go and renounce before a U.S. Conselor officer and fill out this form raise your right hand and swear. Here is the form you can review it http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/81606.pdf . It is possible to become stateless you know. Why wait for Philippine citizenship? The fact that you may or may not become a citizen of the Philippines should change nothing regarding your personal beliefs about U.S. citizenship.
Of course I know you don’t want to do that, you feel a sense of duty, loyalty, love or just a desire to remain a U.S. citizen even if unexplainable intellectually, you have it in your gut; as do I. My point is you are a man of your word, ok, but aren’t you also a man of action? And don’t one’s actions have to be consistent with one’s words to have significance. And don’t actions trump words? At least our Supreme Court believes so and so do most modern logical thinkers.
There are unjust laws and unreasonable requirements placed upon citizens in both the U.S. and other countries which get struck down by our respective courts all the time. And I’m assuming you respect our courts even when you don’t agree with a particular ruling and even if the court itself has no power to enforce a ruling. What happens Bob when the stated law doesn’t match a court ruling? You are erroneously thinking “well, I still have to believe in the stated law and any unreasonable requirements placed upon me to make statements etc no matter how contrary to the constitution.” You should be thinking instead “well, my court (which I respect) has ruled on this matter and I know that although another branch of government or another government may require me to say something in the naturalization process, I will still before during and after such statement continue to respect the ruling of the court on this matter in my heart and when ever possible act accordingly and consistent with such ruling and as a U.S. citizen. To do otherwise would be to put things backwards. We both support the constitution and the laws and policies which are founded on that miraculous living breathing document. The fact that still the Philippines and some countries (including the U.S.) require the “statement of renunciation” is just plain contrary and inconsistent with the U.S. constitution as ruled by the Supreme Court; rulings which are further established in law and policy. We do have laws inconsistent with each other however on this matter such as the fact that the U.S. itself still requires a renunciation statement of foreigners wishing to naturalize as U.S. citizens.
When the great historical King Solomon needed to decide between two women claiming to be the mother an infant baby he ordered the baby cut in two thereby proposing to give half to each of the disputing mothers. The true mother stepped forward and stated she was not the mother and to give the child to the other woman. Of course Solomon determined the true identity of the real mother through her ACTIONS which trumped all statements.
The moral of the story Bob, is that it is great to have one’s words match up with one’s actions. But that is not always possible such as when one or more governments are placing unreasonable burdens in your path. In that case, actions trump words.
So Bob, can’t you think of a time when you’ve ever had a mismatch between your actions and statements? Even now you are walking around happy to be a U.S. citizen and loving life in the Philippines and think “I am more than just a resident of the Philippines; and I would already have become a citizen of the Philippines if not for the requirement of the renunciation statement” You are currently letting a future statement trump your current actions as proven by your life and the way you are living it in your gut! So Bob, man of your words, my argument is you currently have a dilemma on your hands (a mismatch of words and actions) and your passports (or lack thereof) are not matching your actions. You are right now a dual citizen hiding in the closet, frightened off by a road block of your own making! What’s going to rule in your life?
Dual citizenship in and of itself opens the door to possible conflicting laws and policies between the two countries. The swearing in is just the first official out in the open example of many possible conflicts down the road. But aren’t you already conflicted? At least if you come out of the closet you will enjoy the light of day knowing your actions have spoken. Right now you are hiding from future words unspoken for fear they will take on more significance than your current closet life of a dual citizen. Think of it as having a mother and a father who don’t always agree, but you still love them both.
Hello David – thanks for your lengthy comment. It is important to remember that the US Supreme Court (whom you seem fond of) has ruled over several decades now, that Dual Citizenship is perfectly legal and correct. What I eventually decide to do about my citizenship is a highly personal choice. I was born a US Citizen, and I love the USA. However, like my ancestors, and I presume yours, I immigrated to a country other than my country of birth, and I feel that I have come to love my new country. I may decide that I should become a citizen here, like my ancestors decided to become a US citizen, and leave their Irish citizenship behind them. It’s all part of life, and my life and yours have taken different paths. Nothing good or wrong on either of our paths, they are just different.
Hi Bob, Sorry for running on and on. Please disregard my convoluted poorly worded previous post. Remember that our Irish ansestors didn´t have the dual citizenship choice like we have today. Today aquiring another citizenship does not necessarily mean one has to relinquish any and all curent citizenships.
Hi David – That’s true…..
David- your feeling of remorse about your somewhat rambling post reminds me of how sometimes I get into a rant about something and get lost along the way, with the result that the rant takes on a life of its own ! lol Then a short time later I realize that I have said some things that I wish I had worded differently [ or not said at all]. I’m eagerly awaiting the announcement of the arrival of ThoughtChecker !! [ or maybe they will call it PostChecker ] lol
Hi ian – Somebody beat me to the “spell checker”. Now we have grammar checkers too. I am not going to miss out on this… I will file today for my new invention.. the “Stupidity Checker”!
Well Bob- thats the end of the internet then !! lol
Ah, I see trouble on the horizon… I could end up putting myself out of business!!!
David said to Bob–Right now you are hiding from future words unspoken for fear they will take on more significance than your current closet life of a dual citizen-
Are you for real David ??? I dont think Bob is hiding out of fear from anything. You are simply trying to judge Bob according to your own insecurities ! Who are you to judge what Bob is and is not feeling ? King Solomon you are not !
You’re absolutely right. My apologies to Bob. I violated my own rule. Please disregard my previous post. If I could delete it I would.
In place of my previous post please read the following.
The question of dual citizenship is a highly personal one.
No problem, David.
This is so like watching a multi-part movie about the Ten Commandments ((complete with intermissions between parts), starring Bob Martin instead of Charlton Heston, only to be told at the end of the movie, sorry, it didn’t really happen. LOL
Don’t need a spell checker on this one, that’s for sure. Jokes aside, though, I think David meant well. But dual-citizenship closet? Now, that’s original!
You are so right, Ian, I am not afraid of the citizenship thing, I am just debating what is right for me. If it was not an issue of importance to me, I wouldn’t have an internal debate about it. Thanks for your support.
Hi, Bob:
I happen to stumble into this past Philippine citizenship article of yours by chance when I followed a recent comment. Now, in the past 8 months since I have been reading LiP, I hear you quite often profess your “undying love” for the Philippines, or something to that effect. While you are not the first foreigner to hold this kind of love for the Philippines that I am aware of (the great Governor General Francis Burton Harrison was one), it is rare to hear this very profound statement coming from a foreigner.
So, it is with interest that I went through all 177 reader comments about this article to look for some kind of validation to what has been in the back of my mind for quite some time, but never had the courage to let it on. Imagine my surprise to discover that no one ever suggested, nor did you personally ever hint, the possibility that this “undying love” for the Philippines may NOT appear as it seems, but rather a subcconscious transference on your part of your own “undying love” for your wife, Feyma, to the country Philippines?
Let me go farther. Should Feyma not be a part of the equation for any reason, can you still say unequivocally that “I don’t plan to ever return to the USA”?
Sorry, for throwing you a curve ball like this, Bob. 🙂
Hi John – You, in later comments, have told ian to be more careful in quoting words.. I would ask you to do the same. I have never uttered the words “undying love”. I have said that I love the Philippines. Of course, if not for Feyma, I probably would have never set foot in the Philippines, so it is because of her that I came to love the Philippines. However, if something happened and Feyma were no longer my wife, I would still have love for the Philippines, and would still want to live here.
I see nothing sinister or hidden in my thoughts of possibly becoming a Philippine Citizen. I have the desire because I love the country. I presume that you are a US Citizen, John, although I am unsure about that. If you because a US Citizen through naturalization, I only say congratulations to you for achieving something that you obviously desired. I see no reason why I would not deserve the same feelings from you and others.
hi bob,
ironic isn’t it? a naturalized US citizen is now questioning your desire to be a philippine citizen?
bob, whatever your reasons to become a citizen of my country, I am happy for you and welcome you with an open arms.
Hey dans- can you read? Read my posts and tell me if I ever questioned Bob’s desire to be a Philippine citizen.
john, let me quote you saying..
“I was looking for some kind of validation from the readers comments “to what has been in the back of MY mind for quite some time, but never had the courage to let on. ”
so what was in the back of your mind? looking for a “validation” and what kind of validation you were looking for??
let me quote you again….
“Imagine my surprise to discover that no one ever suggested, nor did you personally ever hint, the possibility that this “undying love” for the Philippines may NOT appear as it seems, but rather a subcconscious transference on your part of your own “undying love” for your wife, Feyma, to the country Philippines?”
the statement above is a form of “questioning or doubt” about bob’s desire to become a Philippine citizen. .
Nah. You missed the point. The validation I was looking for from the readers comments was affirmation of my belief that Bob’s love for the Philippines is an extension of his love for his wife. I never question his desire to be a Filipino citizen.
I didn’t miss the point, you are too vague about your “validation” thing – you could have said it a lot more clearer.
Gotta back you up on that one John R – my friend Dans has missed the point . At least he hasnt accused you of being on drugs ! lol
Hi John – I don’t believe that my love for the Philippines has anything to do with Feyma, other than the fact that it was through her that I came to know the country. With or without her I would love the country. It is my home.
Hi dans – Thank you for your support. I am not sure yet if I will become a citizen or not, but it is something that I think I will probably do. I really don’t understand some of the questioning I am getting on this, though! ❓
Bob- mighty lively posts today !! What are you going to do for an encore ? lol
Wow John Reyes- you have way too much time on your hands !!! lol
Unfortunately for me you blew the whole point of your argument when you said “uniquivocally ” and “don’t plan” in the same sentence. lol Of course Bob can easily say that. I think what you meant to say was can Bob unequivocally say that he ” will never return to the USA” And those are 2 much different things in my opinion.
I dont understand why Bob’s saying that he wants to become a filipino citizen draws so many questions about his judgment and his motivations and reasons for doing so . Why does Bob for one moment have to – as you say- validate his decision.
Like you- I also have something in the back of my mind- and it is that some Americans cant seem to let go of the notion that they are not the only country on earth that means anything. And it is that blind allegiance that leads to their total failure to understand Bob’s decision.
Thats my knuckle ball back to you John R lol
Wow, Ian, really? Slow down, man. You’re too quick on the draw. Note that “don’t plan” was in quotes, meaning it was quoted verbatim from Bob’s article above. He didn’t say, “will never return to the USA”. He said in the article, “I don’t plan to ever return to the USA.” To change the words enclosed in quotation marks is tantamount to putting words in Bob’s mouth. LOL
Moreeover, my question does not address Bob wanting to become a Filipino citizen. My question attempts to explore the underpinnings for Bob’s “undying love” for the Philipines.
I asked NO validation for his decision. to become a Filipino citizen. If you read my post again, I was looking for some kind of validation from the readers comments “to what has been in the back of MY mind for quite some time, but never had the courage to let on. ” – a direct quote from my original post.
I fail to see the point in dragging “blind allegiance” and the USA in this conversation. They are totally irrelevant. 🙂 If there is any “blind allegiance” going on, I think it is you who have been blindly defending Bob all day. He’s a grown man, he can defend himself without you running interference for him. LOL
Ian- To explain further the validation I was seeking, but did not find, from the readers’ comments:
“What has been in the back of my mind for quite some time, but never had the courage to let on [was} the possibility that this “undying love” for the Philippines may NOT appear as it seems, but rather a subcconscious transference on your part of your own “undying love” for your wife, Feyma, to the country Philippines?”
John R- its funny that you accuse me of blindly defending Bob all day . I just say it how I see it, and its just by mere coincidence that today i happen to disagree with the people who are questioning Bob’s motives. Many times- and I think bob will back this up- I have been very much NOT on Bob’s side !!
I am not defending Bob at all, but rather his decision to seriously consider becoming a Philippine citizen. As you point out – Bob certainly doesnt need to be defended- by me or anyone else.
You are certainly right in that sometimes we make decisions based on subconscious transference. But I think that Bob made his decision making so open and transparent- so that he could get feed back on his thinking process. I dont see any sign of anything even slightly subconscious. [ but then my thoughts on that matter are no more valid than your raising the issue- ]
OK, if there was no subconscious transference, that’s great. Bob already stated that with or without Feyma in the equation, he would still love the Philippines enough to live there. I respect that, but let’s be clear that I have never questioned Bob’s desire to become a Filipino citizen. I just happen to experience a very similar feeling. I fell in love with Germany because I fell in love with a German girl.
John R- as i said earlier i think it is a valid thing to ask. And i never did feel that you questioned Bob’s desire to become a filipino- only his motivation in doing so.
It sounds like you may have asked yourself at some time the same questions that you are now asking Bob ? As long as you are happy with where you are I think that that is the only important thing.
Hi ian – I agree with you, I see no reason why my thoughts of becoming a Philippine citizen are looked on with such intrigue. My ancestors became US citizens after they came from Ireland. Why should I not consider becoming a citizen in my new homeland?
dans says:
September 17, 2010 at 4:52 pm
I didn’t miss the point, you are too vague about your “validation” thing – you could have said it a lot more clearer.
Answer:
Not vague at all. It’s a matter of reading carefully what’s written before spouting your mouth…
i read it clearly and understood it well, and i know exactly what you want to “validate”, you want to validate if bob’s desire to become a Philippine citizen is purely his love for the country or has it been influenced by other things.
it really doesn’t matter whatever underlying reason for bob to make his decision – and we should not question nor suggest to him that maybe his decision is based on a subconscious transference. – if you show any doubt about his desire to be a philippine citizen, then you are questioning him.
You keep going back to the same argument about citizenship. One more time, and I quote,
“Imagine my surprise to discover that no one ever suggested, nor did you personally ever hint, the possibility that this “undying love” for the Philippines may NOT appear as it seems, but rather a subcconscious transference on your part of your own “undying love” for your wife, Feyma, to the country Philippines?”
That’s not showing any doubt about Bob’s desire to be a Philippine citizen. It is asking whether his love for the Philippines has anything to do with Feyma, and Bob already answered that. He said no, and I respect that.
“That’s not showing any doubt about Bob’s desire to be a Philippine citizen. It is *asking* whether his love for the Philippines has anything to do with Feyma, and Bob already answered that. He said no, and I respect that.”
you just answer yourself. lol!
My condolences John R !!!!!! hahahahaahah Sometimes you just have to shake your head and walk away !
I ain’t walking away from no dans, Ian. See the guy has a habit of trying to get in people’s nerves by twisting words around, hoping that the other guy would give in so that he can have the last word. By having the last word, he thinks he wins, but all he’s doing is going round and round and trying to confuse you. LOL
Watch now how he will start calling me names like he did you and other readers who had the misfortune of arguing with him. Watch…
don’t lose sleep over it. lol
I’m not gonna say anything coz I’m trying to be a better person !!! lol
But I am going to need a tranfusion because I am biting my tongue so hard I’m bleeding like crazy ! lol
sorry- transfusion
MindanaoBob says:
September 17, 2010 at 5:07 pm
Hi John – I don’t believe that my love for the Philippines has anything to do with Feyma, other than the fact that it was through her that I came to know the country. With or without her I would love the country. It is my home.
Answer: Happy to hear that, Bob. I think though that some of our expats have come to love the country as a direct result of loving their wives to a point where the two (wife and the Philippines) became synonymous.
That’s the best you can do? Where’s the four-letter word this time, huh, dans?
am i getting into your nerves? lol..
Come on say it, man. Don’t be embarassed. It’s your trademark. Don’t disappoint people.
you win.. happy now? lol..
Oh, I’m so disappointed with you, dans. You didn’t live up to my expectations this time around. What happened? Cat got your tongue. Hasta la vista, baby. Don’t forget, the next time you try to tangle with people get your head out of your you know what and read the posts carefully before frothing at the mouth. Hahahaha
sure will do.. lol!..
dans says:
September 17, 2010 at 5:41 pm
don’t lose sleep over it. lol
Answer: That’s the best you can do? Where’s the four-letter word this time, huh, dans? Ran out of gas?
Hey Bob, This is my attempt to return to rational thought and offer some practical suggestions as to why dual citizenship is better than single citizenship. I respect your right to dump the U.S. citizenship in favor of another, but there are practical reasons why one may want both even if you don’t see an immediate benefit.
You may believe with 100% certainty that you will never return to the U.S. to live. Only rivers don’t turn back. Never say never. But let’s say for arguments sake you are right on that point. You still may need to “visit” for the following reasons.
In today’s climate of growing security precautions regarding international travel it may come to the point where you need a U.S. visa even if you do not disembark in the U.S. while passing through. And I think that may already even be the case. Or let’s say you have to go back for some kind of familial or friendship emergency to help clear something up legally or otherwise. What if there came to be some new medical procedure needed by you or your wife or your children that was only available in the U.S. Do you really want to go through the hassle of trying to get a U.S. visa? In just the past two years things are changing regarding obtaining U.S. visas.
Do you have any kids or plan on any? If they simply want to just visit or even live in the U.S. why send them through the hassle of getting a U.S. visa. Let them decide on their own regarding their citizenship. Now your children can be dual citizens. And they can always relinquish one or the other later if they chose to. But if you relinquish yours now you remove the possibility of passing it on to any future children. There are as you know certain jobs in the States which your children may want to pursue which require as a prerequisite U.S. citizenship.
Not currently, but in the future U.S. Social Security pensions or cost savings through Medicare could some day be an issue where U.S. citizenship is a requirement. True, currently not, but can you predict the future how congress may react to public opinion and amend laws accordingly? Now your wife (I’m assuming she is a non U.S. citizen) will some day be entitled to 50% of your future Social Security (and 100% upon your demise) even if you are not a U.S. citizen. But that could change. Keeping your U.S. citizenship insulates you and your wife from most unforeseen changes in the laws. Currently Medicare does not pay outside the U.S. but that may also change and be made available for U.S. citizens and dependents of U.S. citizens only.
For tax purposes there are plenty of no income tax states to chose from (which is what I have done including maintaining a U.S. driver’s license while living full time overseas since 1999) or you could go one step further and you don’t even have to maintain a residency of any state and thereby pay no state taxes.
Bob, im a filipino living here in canada for 24 years now. I know the struggle that you been, when i lost my philippine citzenship i felt i lost something very important .it was haunting me for a very long time. Now im a dual coz i love both countries. You dont need a piece of paper ” to make it official”, in my book you are also a filipino you become our white brother. Lol.
Thank you, Ambo. I appreciate that very much.
Indeed, I did.
Did you ever make this decision?
Well what was your decision and how did you finally come to the place to make up your mind?
Hi Stanley – While I still have a strong desire to be a Philippine Citizen, I decided to not make any citizenship changes. I learned more about the process through a friend who just became a Philippine Citizen. It took him about 7 years to complete the process, and I just decided that it was too much hassle for me. I may still reconsider at a later date.
My Wife miriam is now a dual citizen, US and Philippines. My children hold both passports as well and also are citizens of The Chickasaw Nation. We like the prospects of moving to Davao and learning to speak the language there as well as other Dialects since much of our family live in Baguio ,Ilocano and Iloilo, Bisaya.
I think that it is crazy all the bribes we had to pay to the government officials to title our legally bought properties. Is it that way in Davao as well that the people that work at the DAR, BIR and DENR, prey on the citizens with bribes and threats and rob the nation with fees in the pocket instead of in the treasury? We still have not finished the process in Baguio becasue of criminal Lawyers that are government officials in those branches of government.
Hi Stanley – My wife and all of my kids are also dual citizens.
I have lived in the Philippines for 15 years, and I was coming here regularly for 10 years before that. In all of that time I paid a bribe one time, and it did not work out well for me. After that I decided that I would never do it again. I have always been able to get the things done that I needed or wanted, without ever paying a bribe. I would strongly encourage you to not pay bribes. It can blow up in your face, and really is not necessary.
Bob,
Wow thats good news. I am glad to hear that from someone there doesnt have to pay bribes. Wow
I even had to pay a p2000 bribe to a policeman in Manila for making a U-turn. He threatneed to take my Licence or my tags from the rental car I was driving. That happened just about one year ago one day before I left to return to USA. Wow all our family has said the only way to get anything done in Iloilo or Luzon is to pay the bribes our you will never get your papaerwork finished? I tried to fight it every step of the way but to no avail. It was very frustrating and discouraging for a man like myself.
Hi Stanley – If I had been in that situation, I would have said, OK, no problem. Take the tags, take whatever you want. I will report it to the rental agency along with your name and badge number. Also, be sure to take a picture of any government person who demands a bribe. They hate that, as it proves you were dealing with them. As soon as you pull out our cellphone to snap a picture, their attitude will change and they will no longer be askign for anything from you.
The “only way to get things done”? I don’t think so. It is sometimes the easiest way, but it certainly is not the only way. Truth is, it has been many years since I have even been asked to pay a bribe. Another tip is that if they ask or imply that a bribe is necessary, ask to speak with their supervisor.
Bob ,
I was not prepared to go to jail that day. I had my wife, 2 young children with me and my mother in law. We were 15 minutes late to return the rental car or pay for another day. I had just driven from Baguio city and was in no way ready to spend the night or afternoon in a Philippine jail and leave my family with no one to watch over them. I figured if he took the tags they would not have let me drive the car away with no tags? It was a set up there were about 7 or 8 police men there under a bridge flagging people down and extorting cash from them. I have driven in the Philippines many times and have never in all the areas I had driven in saw one moment of traffic law enforcement. I had never experienced that side of the country until that trip when we came to finish the process on the properties we had purchased. Wow it was the biggest let down and we almost decided to regoup and not move there at all. What we did instead was decide to move to Mindinao instead, just as soon as we have our passive income rolling in. Were working on that now. We hope to come there in about 2 more years and rent first then buy or build a place for us to spend half the year there and then half the year here on our ranch. We have now opted to sell the property in Baguio before we even have it in our name. Hopefully we can at least get our money back out of it, because we have refused to pay the criminals there. We will keep our 3 hectacres in Iloilo until we can establish a organic farm there as well.
You have not been to Davao, or driven in Davao, I assume then. Traffic enforcement is strict here. There are even speed limits that are enforced! I got a ticket once for not wearing a seat belt! Traffic is very strict here, unlike most of the country.
Wow thats good then, then there will be less problems with unruly drivers, and outragous,bus, motorcycle and jeepney drivers that never follow the laws. What other enforcement is there?
Is it true about all the vigilante killings sponsored by the government in Davao? And that being the reason that crime is low there because you stumble on the wrong foot and your dead? http://www.gmanetwork.com/news/story/154853/news/regions/govt-probe-of-vigilante-killings-in-davao-starts http://newsinfo.inquirer.net/434243/davao-death-squad-strikes-again https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davao_death_squads Know anyone killed by this group?
All laws are strictly enforced in Davao.
As for the other part of your comment, you have taken the conversation in a direction where I no longer wish to comment.