The Philippines is currently involved in an ongoing battle with Taiwan over the deportation of some 14 Taiwanese citizens on February 2nd of this year. The Taiwanese were involved in a fraud scheme in which Chinese citizens were defrauded of some US$20 Million. The Taiwanese government admits that their citizens were charged with such crimes, and even sought to have them sent home. Police in Taiwan, China and the Philippines, as well as Interpol all wanted these Taiwanese Citizens, in addition so some Chinese Citizens who were allegedly involved with them.
So, everybody agreed that these Taiwanese should be deported. So, why the battle between Taiwan and the Philippines?
Well, you see, Taiwan considers itself independent from China. Some nations recognize the independence of Taiwan, other nations don’t. China considers Taiwan to be a renegade Province of China. The Philippines has a “one China” policy, meaning that it only regcognizes Mainland China as a nation, and not the island of Taiwan. So, when the Philippines deported the Taiwanese, they sent them to China, and not to their homeland of Taiwan. This sent Taiwan into a fury.
These Taiwanese people came to the Philippines from Taiwan, not from Mainland China. Normally, when you are deported, you are sent back to the country where you came from. But, since the Philippines does not recognize Taiwan as a country, they sent them back to the mainland. Problem is, the Philippines currently has over 90,000 Filipinos working in Taiwan as OFW’s there (Overseas Filipino Workers). Due to the deportation crisis, Taiwan is threatening to either fire the 90,000 and send them home, or to at least freeze the hiring of additional Filipinos. In the world economic situation that we live in today, if the Philippines loses 90,000 jobs in Taiwan, that would likely have a pretty severe impact on the Philippine economy.
Earlier this week, President Aquino sent an emissary, Mar Roxas (Aquino’s running mate last year) to Taiwan to see if the situation could be negotiated and put aside. The trip was rather unsuccessful, though. The Taiwanese asked Roxas for the Philippines to issue an apology for the incident, and if they apologized the issue would be laid to rest. However, Roxas, and the Philippine government refused to apologize, saying that they had nothing to apologize for. Because of this, the Taiwanese refused to lay the issue to rest.
As expats living in the Philippines, we need to keep an eye on this case. While it is unlikely, what would we think if, for example, Libya, who is currently in a deep crisis, suddenly called for all Americans (or whatever nationality) to be arrested and sent to Libya. Would the Philippines follow the request and send American expats to Libya for some sort of prosecution. I highly doubt it could happen, but these Taiwanese were sent back to a hostile government, and I would not have expected that to happen either. So, who knows what events could transpire that would affect expats from the USA, UK, Australia or some other place? It is just impossible to predict. But, if Taiwanese can be deported to an unfriendly government, the same could conceivably happen to any of us.
What do you think? Do you think the Philippines made an error in the original handling of the deportation? Should the Philippines have issued an apology to put the issue to rest? What will happen if those 90,000 Filipinos lose their jobs and are sent home?
Bob, I think you overdramatise a bit. Remember this – Philippines does not aknowledge Taiwan as an independent country, but I doubt that anyone can argue against the US to be an independent country. So relax !
Second issue is – Is Taiwan really an independent nation ? Or is it part of China ? I see many resemblances between the Taiwan and China issue and the Denmark – Greenland issue. Taiwan want’s independence – but legally they are a part of China but with independent governance (which among other things reflects on local legislation) but is the Taiwaneese acctually chineese when it comes down to bottom line ? YES they are, and as long as China doesn’t grand Taiwan complete freedom and independence then they will be – so in reality Philippines send the Taiwaneese to the right country. I see no problem in this case and I would in no way worry about either US or European expats safety in regards to this incident. It’s a completely diffrent matter.
Indeed, overdramatic. I did that on purpose, sort of poetic license! 😆
But, the second part of your comment I disagree with. For example, if a guy was from Arizona and he was sent to Oregon, that doesn’t mean that either state is an independent nation.
No but if an american gets deported to the US – then the important thing is that he will land in his own country – he can not demand to be send to a specific state or city, eh?
Hi Michael – Well.. I must say that I disagree with your analysis that Taiwan is part of China. Personally, I would day that Taiwan is an independent nation.
Bob
I think they should be removed to there own country unless that country will not take them back. In that case they should try to find another country that will take them, if not they could be released in that country or held in detention indefinately until i guess they think they are no longer a threat to society. I learned alot working longside ICE for a few years. Have a nice day!
Hi Randy – Usually, when it comes to deportation, a person is sent back to their country of citizenship, or country of origin from where they traveled to the Philippines (or whatever country they are being deported from). I do not believe a country of citizenship can legally deny entry to a citizen. Take care, my friend!
Bob
There are a few countries that do that. Bahamas will not take Bahamian Citizens of Haitian Decent back, especially if they are criminals and there is no agreement with Cuba to take there citizens back. I know alot of cases where deportees did not want to go back to there country and had to be physically carried to the airplane, ie, China, Haiti as an example due to the possibility of them being killed as soon as they landed at the airport. Good Day.
Very interesting, Randy, news to me. Thanks for sharing.
Bob, the latest news is that those persons should not have been deported by BI as the DoJ had issued a stay order. It turns out that the search warrant was incorrect and anything found what be “Tainted fruit”. The latest legal opinion is that nothing found was indicative of illegal activities. Not sure how that helps the Taiwanese who were shipped off to the People’s Republic of China.
Hi Steven – It would seem that the deportation was illegal… good luck on getting them back from China, though!
Taiwan is definitely seen as a semi-independent or stand alone self-governing entity. Otherwise, Philippines would not accept Taiwanese passports at the airport or permit direct flights from Taiwan to Philippines having its own ID and code-sharing protocols. Philippines would not permit Filipinos to go to Taiwan using a Taiwanese visa, if Taiwan was not that recognized. In reality Philippine does so, so sending them to China is illegal. They came from Taiwan should be deported back to Taiwan, just as it accepted their passport at the airport. Mainland China would deport them back to Taiwan.
Tell a Formosan that he’s Chinese. If you survive, you’ll have learned history the hard way!
😆
😉
The Republic of China (Taiwan) isn’t, has never been and will probably never be a part of the People’s Republic of China. An anthropologist recently said that there are closer ties between Taiwan and New Zealand than with mainland China – the Austronesians spread out from the island now known as Taiwan and spread out to the areas now known as Malaysia, Indonesia, the Pacific Islands and, yes, New Zealand (ever wondered about the similarities in looks?). The People’s Republic of China has a dangerous mindset that what it wants it gets. Look at Tibet. And now look at the extremely tenuous claim to some of the Philippines’ island.
When the Iron Lady, Margaret Thatcher, decided to hand the whole of the Hong Kong Colony to mainland China and not just the leased area, she picked the wrong country. She should have picked Taiwan because when the Nationalists fled mainland China they took with them thousands of tons of artwork and documents. Included in those documents were the two so-call “unequal treaties” from when England took Hong Kong Island and Kowloon as reparation for the bother of sorting out the mainland Chinese in the Delta.
“And now look at the extremely tenuous claim to some of the Philippines’ island.”
True, given that the Philippines lays claim to a vast island group, some of which are occupied or contested by a number of SEAsia nations and China and Taiwan, without a powerful navy, and there’s not much the Philippines can do about it except to protest.
This was a no win situation. Just like the Kobiashi Maru situation in Star Trek. So much has been done to upset the Chinese lately, and sending them to Taiwan would have been the same as admitting that Taiwan is a seperate nation. As much as I think the Philippine government personifies the Keystone Cops at times, they may have been under pressure from both sides in this situation, and knuckled under to the kid with the biggest fists on the block.
If the workers are sent back, the only ones that will suffer are the OFWs, and their families. The scam artists and con men in Manila that profit from the OFW big money making fever will have a heyday shipping them elsewhere.
I am a bit confused when you say “so much has been done to upset the Chinese”. I can only assume you are talking of the bus hostage incident with the people from Hong Kong?
More than the OFW’s and their families will suffer, though.. the Philippine economy will suffer. I am against the whole OFW thing anyway, but the sudden impact of 90k losing work would be a big hit on the economy here.
Yes Bob, I am talking about the bus situation, since Hong Kong now belongs to China.
As far as the economic hit, I think the question needs to be asked about how far out of kilter things are now due to the huge amount of disposable income coming in that was not produced, or earned in this country. Kindof like taking heroin away from a junkie….horrendous short term pain, but perhaps a better situation in the long run. I too am opposed to the whole “OFW, hero of the Philippines” attitude of the government. I think it is shameful that due to the outrageous customs fees, corruption, changing rules, etc, we do not see more foreign investment in this country that would produce manufacturing jobs. The rich oligarchy in this country are so protected that they can produce absolute garbage as a product, and charge twice what the product is worth. Who pays for this poor product? The Filipino people of course. If the average Pinoy wants a quality product, he must pay through the nose to get it due to an abusive customs department. When competition is stiffled, the consumer ends up the loser.
Saudi Arabia is gving money away to their citizens to keep them from revolting. The Philippines government encourages their citizens to sell their children into sometimes abusive slavery situations. So Mom and Pop have a full belly, Little brother gets a motorbike, and everyone is lulled into a false sense of security. No one revolts, or demands changes in attitudes and laws that will benefit the AVERAGE hard working Filipino. The rich get richer, and the almost non existent middle class here gets to eat cake. Worst of all big sister is held prisoner, raped and abused by some Arab family. Even the more fortunate that get a nursing job are living in poverty so they can pay off the recruiter that sent her to the US, and send money home to a seemingly never satisfied family.
Hi Dave – Yes, but even China considers Hong Kong a separate entity from the mainland, and because of it they have their own special government and such. So, I am not sure that the mainland Chinese Government considered too deeply the whole situation with the bus.
I could not have said it any better Dave. Yup, I’ve seen the tears of betrayal after when sister comes home from the middle east to see that the money she sent for a house was not spent on the house, and little sister who’s supposed to be graduating from college never went to college and is instead pregnant. And the worst story of all was when OFW comes home sick, but no one’s interested in nursing her back to health when everyone else had benefited from her earnings. So much for family ties huh?
I’m sorry to be so negative Bob, but I’ve seen enough OFW tears to last me a lifetime. But they still kept coming to hellhole places in the middle east.
Hi Christine – Thanks for sharing your story. I appreciate it.
Hong Kong is a Special Administrative Region because there wasn’t a hope in hell that the locals would accept the People’s Army marching down the road. As it was, when Hong Kongers realized that the whole caboodle was going to be had over there was a mass exodus. Then talks resulted in the system of “One Country, Two Systems” and the signing of solemn, legally binding charters – but that wont last for ever and in 2047 whoever is running mainland China will have full and complete control over Hong Kong. Apart from the new flag and the removal of “crowns” the only real change was a political leader chosen by Beijing.
OK, thanks for sharing that, Steven.
Well said Dave.so true, the rich and the corrupt dont want anything to change.
ya what exactly is what up with these PI families ???
are they all so greedy ?
my wifes family is always asking her for money
i give her enough to pay her bills & eat with a little left over
they think just because i am a kano i am some kind of millionare
hell i am just a regular guy that works for a living
maybe they can all go get 2 jobs like i have
piglett
hi piglett, sad to say you married the wrong kind of filipina, in my honest opinion.
sorry for going off-topic, bob!
Learn to say no.
If mainland China requested the extradition of these Taiwanese citizens to be tried for offences committed in China I really do not see the problem. To put it simply, if a Taiwanese citizen commits murder in Beijing and flees to the Philippines, why on earth would the Philippine government send them anywhere but China? I think the Philippine government really has no need to apologise for their actions on this matter.
Hi Bryan – It sounds like what you are talking about is extradition, which is not what this was. If the Chinese Govt requested extradition for a crime, so be it. But this was deportation, not extradition, two different things. Extradition, as far as I know, was yet to be requested. Perhaps the Philippines should or could have held the criminals in jail until an extradition request was received.
If no extradition was requested then you are correct Bob,in this case I do not even see a case for deportation anywhere unless they committed offences in the Philippines – another case of the Philippine government shooting itself in the foot.
Hi Bryan – I know for sure that these folks were not extradited to China, but deported to China. While in the end, it works out the same… it is an important legal difference, and the cause of the argument between the Philippines and Taiwan.
Brian G.
They could be in the Philippines illegally, in that case they are removable!
Bob I truly believe the Philippines represents the “Peter Principle” in almost anything it undertakes with Foreign Politics as well as Domestic Corruption Investigations. Taiwan should send the 90,000 filipinos back as a lesson and wakeup call. The Philippines needs other countries more than the World needs it. As it is the Philippines it grossly unfair to even resident expats as to what they can and can’t do here compared to the liberties we give Filipino residents in the States. Too many double standards.
I have to admit, Dwayne… in many ways I agree with what you are saying. It is as if the Philippines is a kid in a world of grownups.
Hi Bob & Dwayne, I do agree with Dwayne here,Bob. Good discussion!
Thanks, Joe.
i am an ofw here in taiwan..before you would say that taiwan should send us back to philippines as alesson and a wake up call..think first..we worked very hard here for our families,very hard…we pay a big amount of money just to get this job..if they had problem about the deportation i think we ofw’s had nothing to do with it..yes we are filipinos,but that does not mean that whatever problems they had with our country,we as filipinos will take the punch..we are innocent people working so hard in their country for our families in the philippines..we did not do anything wrong for taiwan and their people..we are working here according to their law,we pay our taxes..so as one of those who is scared to be affected by this dispute of two countries,i think it would be unfair for us to be send back because we are innocent,we had nothing this..taiwan is very great country with great people..our worked here is our life,maybe they should think about that before deciding not to let us worked here ever..
Hi Bob – Living closer to Taiwan than to Manila, we up here in the far north see the impact in tourism. Throw in the disasterous handling of that tour bus a little while back, and now the number of tourists from Taiwan is dwindling. What a great way to treat a neighbor, as well as a great way to treat a potential source of tourist pesos.
I think Filipino Pride will keep any positive result from happening on this issue – time will have to, once again, be the healer for a rather dismal move.
Wonder if it would be the same were it Formosa? 😉
Hi Paul – I am sorry to hear that you are already seeing economic effects up north, but it doesn’t really surprise me, I suppose.
Pride can be a killer. Time heals, but I’m not sure it heals all wounds.
Sounds like the 5 letter word PRIDE..will be the deciding factor in all of this Bob, as it has through out the centuries.
I think you are right on that, Dan.
hi Bob
part of your article read as follows……….Well, you see, Taiwan considers itself independent from China. Some nations recognize the independence of Taiwan, other nations don’t. China considers Taiwan to be a renegade Province of China. The Philippines has a “one China” policy, meaning that it only regcognizes Mainland China as a nation, and not the island of Taiwan.
Excuse my ignorance in seeking this explanation…but after reading the above , the thought arose that if Phil does not regognize Taiwan as a seperate nation then why is it letting Taiwanese citizens in on a Taiwan passport which technically speaking is not legal..If they did come on a Chinese passport then maybe thats where they should have been deported back to. All to technical for me im afraid, lol
Actually Dave, that is an interesting thought. Where was their passport issued? If it was invalid, as in coming from a non nation, then why were they even admitted? Wait….let me guess, Visa extension money!
Hi David – I had not thought of that, to be honest, but you make a good point. I feel certain that these folks were not traveling on Chinese Passports, but rather on Taiwanese Passports. Interesting thing to consider!
Good point,Bob!
Thank you, Joe.
Hi Bob, some the reasoning I read was that the 14 people that was sent to the mainland did not produce or cannot proved they were from Taiwan. This reasoning was repeated several times on news report. At any rate, it seems that decision was hastily decided by the PH government on this issue.
During the infancy of electronic email, my Commander at the Training Center always say, if you are not sure or in doubt about the decision or the content of your email, sleep on it overnight or better yet, don’t fill in the addressee line just in case of sending reflex/mistake.
Hi Mars – I don’t believe for a second that the 14, or some of them, had difficulty proving where they were from. They had to have a passport from somewhere when the entered the Philippines, right? If it came down that they could not prove where they were from, how did the Philippine Government decide where to send them? Flip of a coin? It makes no sense to me.
I was wondering about that news report also, except that they know the rest are from the mainland.
Hi Mars – I really think that whoever wrote that article was not thinking clearly… it just doesn’t add up! 😆
Hi Bob
I dont pretend too understand this situation in anyway, but i do know that you dont have the right to be returned to your last country of residence unless you are a citizen of that country. Being a PR is only a priviledge that can be stripped of you at anytime if you revoke the conditions that was set out by the immigration dept when they granted you that status. so if a PR living in Australia but still a British citizen was to commit a crime in another country that warranted deportation, then Australia is within its rights not to accept that person back and hence he/she must be deported back to their country of citizenship.
further to above…i mentioned this just in case these are Chinese citizens living in Taiwan as permanent residents
Only SOME of them are Chinese citizens living in Taiwan. Some are Taiwanese who are not Chinese Citizens.
Hi David – I am sorry, I don’t know what a “PR” is… never heard the term. But, keep in mind that I never said that you have a right to be returned to the country you came from. I said that a country that is deporting you is supposed to return you to one of two places: The country of your citizenship or the country that you came from upon your entry. There are no rights for this, only policy.
Also, I am not talking about people who committed crimes. I am talking about deportation, not extradition. Just want to be clear.
sorry Bob
a PR….is a permanent resident, a status that allows people to live in Australia for life without actually becoming a citizen, subject to obeying all the rules that are set out when granted that status…i dont know how many countrys adopt this policy , i think a pinoy working in Singapore for more then 3 yrs can apply for a PR status
OK, I understand. We are talking about two different things. Here is what I mean:
I am an American Citizen.
I am a permanent resident of the Philippines.
If I traveled to Hong Kong, and then I went to Switzerland from Hong Kong, if I were to be deported from Switzerland, under International norms, the Swiss should deport me either to Hong Kong (because I came to Switzerland from there) or to the USA (because that is my citizenship). No matter how badly I wanted to be returned to the Philippines, that is not what would likely be done.
correct Bob…..There are clear guidelines that most immigration departments should follow…but we all know they dont.
Ya, its all about chinese. Maybe its time to realize that majority of the commercial establishments in the country are owned and run by chinese. All the money send to the country by the OFWs go straight to pockets of these chinese businessmen. The situation is similar to a pool of water. The OFWs keep pouring water to the pool while these big establishments pump water out of it! Its not cyclic as you can see, because the salary of our local workers are very small. So meaning after they pump out the water nothing or a few of it returned back to the pool. Even if the government can managed to convince hundreds of new investments if the situation is like this, it is useless. It is just like recruiting somebody to bring pumps to suck water out of the pool. While the commercial establishment bloom, the neighborhood still very poor due to low wage…
Hi Ferdinand – No establishments here are run by Chinese nationals. 100% of businesses here are run by Filipinos. It is illegal for foreigners to own businesses here. Yes, people of Chinese descent own businesses here, but they are Filipinos. For example, Henry Sy, yes, he is of Chinese blood, but he is a Citizen of the Philippines. His nationality is Filipino, not Chinese.
A bit off topic but from what I heard many “overseas Chinese” particularly those who were raised in Southeast Asia don’t like the mainland Chinese.
I would suspect so.
Bob – While this is 100% true of ethnic Chinese in the Philippines, so many Filipinos I know regard them as “outsiders” even though they are by all definitions Filipinos. I hear them often spoke about as if they were foreigners. I’m not agreeing with that conclusion, I only observe the reality of perception. 😀
Hi Bill – Yes, and that is exactly why I said what I said, because even though these people are Filipino Citizens, they are mostly regarded as not being Filipino by the local people.
Not exclusive to Filipinos. I think most people, regardless of nationality, think that way. Kinda like the situation between people born in the US mainland and those born in the territories, the Koreans and Japanese citizens that aren’t “ethnic Korean” or “ethnic Japanese” in Korea and Japan. Just as much as to many in the US mainland, Puerto Ricans are not really “Americans” even though they are US citizens. The countries of exemption to my mind in Malaysia and Singapore
What? I am sorry, Katrina, but you are way off base. In the USA, if you are a citizen you are an American, no matter where you are born. Puerto Ricans are Americans, because PR is part of the USA, and they are considered Americans. Heck, Feyma was born and raised in the Philippines, but she is every bit as much American as I am, and is seen that way by the vast majority of Americans. I am not sure if you have ever been to the US before, but it sounds like you have not.
What I meant was in a general sense, are Puerto Ricans seen by your average “American” as “American”? Maybe to the government yes, as much as rights to citizenship is concerned but being “viewed” as Americans esp. Anglo-Americans? It’s the same way that despite being Filipino citizens by birth, ethnic Chinese aren’t seen as Filipinos.
I didn’t mean to look down on Americans. I’m just saying, it happens around the world. Many a times, people stress on ethnicity more than nationality/citizenship. Many “Half Chinese” call themselves so aren’t half Chinese, technically since both their parents are Filipino citizens.
Is Amy Chua Chinese-American or Filipino American?
You and I see it totally different. My blood is mostly Irish, but I am an American, and viewed as an American. Of course most Americans view Puerto Ricans as Americans, because they are!
It’s not if you and I see it differently. It’s how the “government” and the “common people” see it. Like it or now, ethnicity and nationality/citizenship overlaps. The US census bureau have “Asian” and “Filipino” or the check box. As much as Filipino is a nationality, it is also treated as an ethnicity. Say for example if Henry Sy is a a naturalized US citizen from the Philippines, which would he check? By citizenship, he is Filipino, ethnically, he isn’t.
If Henry Sy were a naturalized US Citizen, he would check “USA” for citizenship and he would check “Asian” for ethnicity. The two are completely different things. The common man would think of him as an American because that is what he would be. I think you have no understanding of how an American thinks, Katrina. I don’t mean that to criticize you, only to state an obvious fact.
I meant if he were to be a naturalized US citizen or is a permanent resident.
Bob, I’m in line with your thinking regarding perceptions of Americanism, but I am also understanding where Katrina is coming from. To me, as well as to you, an American citizen is an American, period, regardless of ethnicity or other country of origin, or a Filipino citizen is a Filipino regardless of whether his roots are in China. Yet, there are those in the minority who still cling to the outlandish belief that you can’t be a “true” American unless you are a white Anglo Saxon Protestant. In this LiP forum alone, I find it hard to believe that a venerable gentleman who exhibits remarkable intellect finds it amusing that a Filipino American, of all people, would defend America against its detractors. Apparently it is beyond this same gentleman’s comprehension that this Filipino American’s close affinity with America and everything it stands for has more to do with this Filipino American’s SENSE OF BELONGING, not merely on the grounds of reaping tangible benefits that go along with being a citizen.
I have to disagree with your statement that “100% of businesses here are run by Filipinos” as it just simply is not true. There is an American that still resides in Texas with his Filipino wife that I know online. There is some sort of stipulation that allows foreigners to completely own their own business if it is in IT or an IT-enabled business. In his case it is a call center in Bacolod that he travels back to take care of often and actually has been there for quite awhile now on his last trip.
In our talks he mentioned that there was no way he would have opened a business in the Philippines if he was unable to own it 100%. I will find out from him the exact way he did this. It took a lot of paperwork for him to get this but it does happen.
I have also read online that an export business can be owned by foreigners where you register your company as a domestic corporation or have a branch of your foreign company here.
Hi lj – You are partially right, and I am partially wrong. You are right that it is not 100%, but it is very close to 100%. A few export business are owned by foreigners. Not all export businesses can be foreign owned, only those that export at least 60% to their home country.
I know of no such rules about an “IT enabled” business. I searched Philippine Business law and found no such thing.
I will get more info from the gentleman I know and send you an email once I do. I am really interested in this since I am also in the IT field. I had no idea about any of it until he told me.
I do think there is also a stipulation where you have to have at least 50 Filipinos employed.
I found some links about it but they are from Law Firms and I don’t really want to quote them. I will admit that I didn’t search deep though.
Info coming soon to an email inbox near you!
The Taiwanese and Mainland Chinese were all arrested by the Philippine authorities.
There was NO extradition request by P.R.O.C.
The Taiwanese government thru their local consular officials went to Philippine Courts and got a court order to not deport these Taiwanese nationals to China but to deport them back to Taiwan.
The Philippine officials did what they wanted, in a very rushed manner. So, they screwed up, especially in these matters of International Politics (remeber the HK tourists that were killed ?). It looks like the Taiwanese government was willing to let a Fait Accompli go by, but they needed to save face and ensure that there will be No Repeat of the same actions in the future … by asking for a Formal Apology from the Philippines, to which, The President (in his pride) says NEVER.
To the pundits who say that the Philippine government did no wrong because they do not recognize Taiwan but P.R.O.C. Why is there a MECO (Manila Economic and Cultural Office) in Taiwan, which handles Passport and Consular functions? Does this not mean that UNOFFICIALLY, The Philippines recognizes Taiwan in some way shape or form (which they recognized before the One China policy). Ditto for the TECO (Taiwan Economic and Cutural Office) which exists in Manila and many major cities in the USA, which also recognizes the One-China policy !!!
Great wrap up,Daniel. This is exactly what happened.
I don’t really know the answer Bob. Yes, there is the ‘one-China’ policy that we adhere to, but then isn’t it funny at the same time that when Filipinos speak of Taiwan, it’s as if it is a de facto sovereign nation.The very problem that I see here is that you either piss off the mainland or piss off Taiwan. It’s a no-win situation for the Philippines, IMO.
I think the very thing messing things up is actually China’s policy. Hong Kong and Taiwan have their own passports and have different systems. I think that “One country, two systems” policy of the mainland puts many countries’ diplomatic relationships in trouble.
..and if you piss of the mainland, you don’t know what they can do. The communist party is as cunning . They could have invaded the dispute Spratly’s than suspend the death penalty. Wait, they took over the Mischief reef back in the ’90s. LOL
The Chinese would not have been upset if these folks were sent to Taiwan, because the Chinese never even sought extradition. It was a foul up by the Philippine government.
From what I have heard, there’s an extradition treaty. But as for the contents, I dunno. Could be ‘automatic’?
But I strongly believe that the reason for the deportation in China were the ones in the death row. Bad move on the Philippine side. Kissing China’s ass. And some lunatic is suggesting an exchange of convicts with the mainland.
Still, I believe China’s one-China policy is crap, confusing and damaging to foreign relations. I believe China would be pissed of if the Philippines hadn’t adhered to the extradition agreement. Covertly though.
But, in any case, extradition must be specifically requested. China made no such request.
These Taiwanese came in on Taiwan passports. If you are a Taiwan passport holder and reside in the USA, if you want to visit The Philippines, you have to apply for a Tourist Visa at a Philippine Consular Office (in any major US city) which is always Single Entry. You pay each time you want to visit …. more money milking truly.
As someone stated, if you recognize the Passport and the Issuing Authority (which is always a National Government Authority) and allow their nationals to Enter/Exit your country, then Deportation should be their Country-Of-Origin, whether you officially recognize it or not.
That’s true, Daniel, the Philippine government accepts Taiwanese tourists on Taiwan passports, which tacitly shows recognition of Taiwan as a country.
Hi Bob,
I agree this was Aquino’s gesture of appeasement with mainland China. Apologisisng to Taiwan will negate this peace offering…angering China and not satisfying Taiwan.
I do not agree that Taiwan will retaliate by sending 90,000 OFW’s home. They need those workers. Otherwise they could have opted to hire Indians, Bangladeshis, Indonesians etc…who are cheaper than Filipino workers long before all these happen.
So in total Aquino made the right calculation. In fact it’s a brilliant move (sorry to sacrifice Taiwan).
Morally it’s wrong but politically and economically it was the right decision at this point in time.
Now, if this was 50 years ago….I’m sure Presidents Ramon Magsaysay or Elpidio Quirino would have sent those deportees to Generalissimo Chiang Kai Shek rather than to Comrade Mao.
Time it is a changin’.
Hi Dr. Long – You are certainly entitled to your view… as am I entitled to disagree with it almost entirely! 😆 Have a good day.
Bob – One thing Dr. Long might have hit on is that President Aquino seems to lean a bit more in Beijing’s direction at times when push comes to shove on an issue. On the surface from afar, it does seem like a gesture of “good will” on Aquino’s part by returning a “runaway children” to their “parents”. Maybe there is more to it, or maybe it is sheer incompetence. It is a fine political dance for sure, and the People’s Republic of China is the 800 pound gorilla in the RP’s neighborhood.
Hi Bill – If China had requested these people to be sent back for extradition, I could see that there was a reason for PNoy to consider it. But, as China made no such request, I see no reason why he should even consider doing such a thing.
I absolutely do NOT think under present law that the Philippines made a mistake. They do NOT recognize Taiwan as being on their own….they recognize Taiwan as being part of China. So they did what they should have done.
I do think the Philippines should change how they view Taiwan, but as of now it is what it is. They were sent back to mainland China…because that is who they recognize.
Also, good for the Philippines for showing some back bone. Too many times the Philippines backs down and lets countries push them around. Not this time…well at least not yet.
Honestly, I like your suggestion. In my mind, Taiwan is a different country from China. But then, I don’t think the Philippines will go against the one-China policy anytime sooner unless China makes a major step to piss off its southern neighbors. Chinese investments and the Spratly’s and China’s covert meddling with Philippine affairs (economic and political). It’s a dangerous move especially that China is showing some aggression(though it denied it) towards its neighbors (East Asia and Southeast Asia).
It was a mistake for the whole world to have adhered to the one-China policy.
Quoting you:
What about the USA, should they change their policy? The USA does not recognize Taiwan as a country either, the US also maintains a One China Policy. But, I can assure you that they would not deport Taiwanese to Mainland China.
While the USA does not officially recognize Taiwan as independent of China, the U.S. 7th Fleet is the big stick that ensures that Taiwan remains an independent nation. It is this big stick that keeps China at bay.
I usually make my initial comments on a post without reading the other comments because I do not want to have my initial view and comment changed by other comments.
I have read many of the comments now and I have to say…I am more certain of my original comment. The Philippines would have ticked off either China or Taiwan depending on their decision. I would prefer to tick off Taiwan to be honest.
Taiwan is going to cool down and come to their senses.
Not only would deporting the Filipinos hurt the Philippines but it would hurt Taiwan. Getting cheap labor is not always as easy as people think.
Good for the Philippines. They actually stood up to another country. Albeit a small one!!
So, to be clear, you do not stand with a country of freedom, but rather would bow down to a country that stomps down on any freedom?
Philippines could stand up against Taiwan, but not against China. All the Philippines could do is kneel down on its knees.
If it came down to China against the Philippines… the Philippines has a defense treaty with the USA, which would make the battle a lot more on the Philippines side.
Unfortunately, for the Philippines, that defense treaty wasn’t ratified by the US congress. I don’t think the US is bound to “defend” the Philippines unless explicitly said so. I know the US has some defense treaty with Taiwan too, but I don’t know the details.
But then, I don’t think China would go to war with any nation, not out of their supposedly peaceful rise, but rather doing so will likely lead to its break up given its internal turmoils and the more pronounced “conflict” with Taiwan. All they can do it sort of like be a bit aggressive.
I think you need to brush up on US law and policy a bit….
Katrina,
I firmly believed that US will try their very best to help the Philippines to keep it safe from outside threat, they’ved done it before already and will do it again, i’d rather side w/ a democratic society than a communist one coz i’m always believed to the freedom of the people and the nation as a whole.
Bob:
This whole issue really is a flare up over events that started many decades ago… Taiwan and RP relations have never really been regarded as particularly warm.
As Taiwan was in the US sphere of influence, the RP had very close ties with Taiwan until Marcos took power. When the RP became independent, there were many Chinese (really Tsinoy) whose families living here, sometimes for several generations, that were not recognized as citizens even though a majority had never been to China. The RP, through several presidents after independence, had attempted to get them to “pick” a citizenship (RP, PRC, or Taiwan)… most chose Taiwan. Therefore, they were officially resident aliens. Problem was that Taiwan regarded them as Filipinos, particularly those who had been here for many years, refusing citizenship. This spat grew until a flare up in the very early 1970’s.
The PRC wooed Marcos with money to recognize the PRC…There was also quite a lot of national pride involved on the RP side…. Marcos wanting to be seen as independent of the United States. The Philippines was one of the first non-communist nations in the world to recognize the PRC government instead of that of Taiwan. Nowadays, there are only about 15 nations that recognize Taiwan over the PRC. Indeed, the PRC generally requires that countries unrecognize Taiwan before sending aid or establishing relations… Needless to say, this was quite the incentive for many African and other nations. The RP was also “forced” to confer RP citizenship on the remaining Tsinoy as part of the diplomatic exchange, ending their state of limbo.
The PRC opened an embassy and Taiwan’s embassy was closed, replaced by an international trade office, or titled something similar, which handles consular functions and the diplomats from Taiwan aren’t “ambassadors” but are titled something else. They effectively are the same thing, diplomatic immunity and all. Virtually all nations recognize the Taiwan passport… Even the PRC (Beijing regards it in similar fasion to a Hong Kong passport).
That being said, since the row over Tsinoy citizenship and the establishing of relations, the relationship between Manila and Taipei has ranged from indifferent to frosty at times. Another row about 15 years back was related to Taiwan travel visas for Filipinos. Filipinos were required to obtain them because of the number of overstays and flood of workers coming to Taiwan.
In reality, this was a diplomatic bungle… Aquino is somewhat limited in his options, and you can bet that the aid money from the PRC played a role. It really was a no-win situation for the government. They should not have been deported to the Mainland, but to the last point of departure or the place of their passport issuance.
Your comments, though, about expats being aware that something similar could happen should not be brushed off lightly, as it appears most have done. No one knows the future, and relations and politics can change quickly. Many people in the world do not particularly like the US government’s actions, and expats can easily be caught up, innocently, in the Great Game.
Hi John – You brought up a number of points that I was not familiar with, particularly in the history of Philippine-Taiwan relations, so I appreciate your comment greatly.
When I mentioned about Libya, that part was a bit just “playing devil’s advocate” as I do not believe it is likely at all. But, when it were to come to other nations, who knows what could happen. I do honestly believe that, as you say, this is an issue for expats to watch and remain apprised of.
But if you click on that “trade office” site the addy is taiwanembassy.com.ph….interesting
Ha ha… that indeed is very interesting! Seems like they are hedging their bets! 😆
Argh! It’s Marcos’ fault! Well spoken on “EDSA DAY” ! 😆
btw, President Marcos followed the US lead so as to continue receiving US foreign aid without having that aid cut or diminished. US President Nixon opened the door to the People’s Repulic of China. Later administrations closed the door on the Republic of China (also known as Taiwan).
Forgot to mention that it was US President Carter who gave the USA the One-China policy in 1978, closing the RoC embassy.
Can we just blame Carter for the whole thing? Makes sense to me! 😆
He meant well,but I never supported Jimmy Carter! We were a disgrace internationally at that time……..History will tell!
Hey Joe, this current administration (US) is running neck to neck and might claim the # 1 spot pretty soon making the Carter years lookin’ good!
Joe, Yes especially with the failed rescue of the hostages in Iran in 1979.
Like you, I was never a fan of Carter, Joe.
Aww, come on guys. He gave us peanuts (pardon the pun)!
Yes…..blame the Peanut farmer Carter for it all of what this post is all about and blame him for a lot more…..He was the worst President the USA ever had. At near 90 he is still the same…
I never thought much of Carter when he was president.
Many of his international policies decisions still haunt us.
But I must make one very strong statement in his favor; his recognition of the dwindling supply of world oil, and his trying to get the US population to face these facts, which was all in vain. Had we looked at the truth as he had ascessd it and begun a different policy toward our energy future we would be far better off than we are now.
He nearly alone gave us the alert and we dismissed it, to our current sad dilemma…
It must have fallen into the nearsightedness of our view of the situation as it was back then; high inflation, blamed on him but not caused by him and of course all of the other maladies of our faltering economy of those times.
Jade
I could write more of the spilled milk but what’s the use.
I believe the Philippines due to their recognizing a “one China policy” did what is in line with that policy. I do not believe the Philippines would be allowed by the International community to do it to a citizen of the United States or another country. I do not believe the Philippines would even try!
I agree with you the loss of 90,000 plus jobs is going to hit the Philippines hard, but President Aquino does not seem to believe the same. He stated upon the return of Roxas that he has already instructed the government to place OFW’s planning to go to Tawian in other countries and those already there if deported could be placed in other jobs around the world. I have a problem believing what he said to save face is true. In the first place if the job issue is no of importance why did he send Roxas in the first place?
President Aquino did not send anyone to any Western nations to explain his position when they objected to his decision to not send a delegate to Oslo and ingore human right issues at China’s request. At first he did not speak the truth and said China had nothing to do with his decision and then he said it was to try and save Filpino lives in China prisons. He did not admit to the truth until the Ambassador of China in Manila publicly thanked Persident Aquino for listening and honoring their request. I think the government of China issued the public “thank you” so the world would know they have or they are getting the Philippines in bed with them. After all China had to know President Aquino had previously denied China had contacted the Philippines about the matter. China obviously did not care the public “thank you” embarrass President Aquino and point out to everyone he had not told his people or the world the truth.
Has President Aquino forgotten about the crisis throughout the Middle East and some areas in Africa that will force OFW’S to leave and return home? They will need to be sent to other countries for jobs.
To me it is just one more sign that President Aquino is playing up to China. Is he doing it out of fear or greed? If I were a Filipino I would be concerned about what future concessions he is willing to make to stay close to China. Western powers and the United States in particular needs to realize our relationship with the Philippines is not the same. The Philippine politicians will continue nursing from both China and the United States until one says enough and force them to decide which they are going to nurse from.
Senator Enrile said three weeks ago that the Philippines should straddle the fence between China and the U.S. until forces us to decide between the U.S. or China. He went on to say that China would most likely serve the Philippine interest more than the U.S. because of geographical location and China has always had a special place in her heart for the Philippines. Senator Santiago said last week that the Philippines and China will have joint military exercises within the next ten years as they presently do with the United States.
You cannot buy friends and loyalty. It does not work in personal relationship or political relationships. Someone will always come along willing to offer more in order to destroy existing relationship either out of jealousy or greed.
Hi Tom – You just flicked on a light in my brain. When I red your first paragraph, I was disagreeing with you. When you said that the “International Community would not allow” the Philippines to do that to a US Citizen or other countries…. who will stop the Philippines? How?
But, when I read on, you hit on two things I had not connected. The Philippines deported these Taiwanese to China. Also, a number (3 I think) of Filipinos were on death row in China, and China strongly said that they would not halt the death sentences. But, suddenly China did stop the death penalties from being pushed through. I bet there is a connection there. I had not even thought of the two events as tied together, but I think you got it right on that! Good thinking!
Hi Bob
At the end of the day these are criminals that the Philippines are well shut of, so i dont really care if they dont get to go back home….you do the crime and you take the medicine. I do care about the overseas workers in Taiwan but will be amazed if they are affected in anyway.
So, let’s think about that for a minute. Let’s say that you have a person who is a dissident of China. The most recent nobel peace prize winner, Liu Xiaobo is a dissident in China. So, as far as China is concerned, he is a criminal. Let’s say that Liu went to the USA and lived there somehow. He went for a vacation in the Philippines, and the Chinese asked the Philippines to send him to China, because they wanted to execute him. No crime was committed against the Philippines (as with the current case, the Taiwanese committed no crime in the Philippines). So, if we follow your thinking, the guy, Liu, is a criminal, and the Philippines should send him back to China for execution? Just want to be sure I am understanding this…. 😉
Of course there are different circumstances but unless im mistaken the Taiwanese are even accepting to these guys being implicated in this fraud. They have apparantly worked in cahoots with some Chinese citizens to commit a serious act of fraud. Now considering its a mixed bunch of fraudsters from both countries i dont have a problem with all being tried in the one country. The fraud has apparantly been comitted against Chinese citizens, so yes send them back there to face the music….it may be some consolation to the victims to see these people get tried . No sympathy if they are guilty and face extreme punishment, if thats the rules of the country. I think the Taiwanese goverment can apply for extradition of their citizens to serve their time in jail in Taiwan if they are found guilty.
Problem is, with China, you don’t always get a fair trial. You get to pay for the bullet that they pay to shoot you. Innocent? Guilty? It matters not when you are already dead. Taiwan can apply for extradition to serve their time back home? Ha ha… I don’t think so.
Yep Bob…that is what the Phiilipines would do The big dragon of China speaks….the little ants in the Phillipines march………They would have to…..sounds like the Goverment there have all ready sold out to China. Soon everything you buy there will be made in China if not all ready and of course that pretty much all ready happened in the USA….Those that run the goverment here in the USA..( not the ones we voters elect.) have all ready done the home work so that most of what you buy here is from China or getting up their close. So..when China gets a little more hungry all the pineapples will go to china…….
Ha ha… as far as I know, nearly everything all of us buy is already coming from China! 😆
All most Bob….but not all yet……
Bob ,
I read from some news but i forgot w/c one that China actually asked the Philippines to sent those Taiwanese and mainlander to China but i forgot w/c link, i will try to find it and post it here.
Thanks rebecca, would be interesting to know.
Hi Bob,
I’ve been traveling across the states today so I come a bit late to discussion. It’s a complex issue, and I’m of different minds depending on the perspective I view it from.
From the late 1800’s until after WWII, Taiwan was part of Japan. After the war, the new Japanese government gave up all its territories. But they didn’t give them to anybody. They just renounced their sovereignty. Soon after, communist revolutionaries in China fought a civil war against the Chinese government. The Chinese government and its forces, was driven down in retreat, to Taiwan.
Imagine if Spain had one day renounced its sovereignty of Cuba, and then later, during the American Civil War, the South had gained the upper hand, forcing Lincoln and his troops to retreat to Cuba. In that case, should the governments of the world continue to recognize the duly elected, but displaced government residing in Cuba as the government of the United States of America, or the slave holding Confederate government on the mainland?
With the above paragraph in mind, it is easy for me to imagine that if I had been born in Taiwan, I would say I’m Chinese, and I pledge allegiance to the Chinese government, but I recognize it to be the democratically elected, capitalistic government currently residing in Taiwan.
It is against the law, and the punishment can be death, to distribute religious literature in some Muslim countries. If an American missionary, living in Italy, was sending Bibles to Iran, what would your opinion be if the Italian government deported the American missionary to Iran to be tried in court (really just a pretense prior to being executed)?
Would you think it self-serving hypocrisy if the following week the Italian Government pleaded with the Iranian government to not execute Italians that had been caught in Iran distributing Bibles?
Complicated and thought provoking.
Honestly, Kevin, some very thought provoking ideas and information there. Very complicated indeed.
Surely you must expect to be tried in the country that you have committed the crime. By all accounts the crimes were committed in China and the fugitives were hiding in the Philippines with arrest warrents already out for them , not only for fraud it seems, but claims of kidnapping and drugs invovements have come to the surface. I just cant see why the Philippino goverment should apologise to Taiwan for their stance on this issue. They have deported all of the fugitives back to the scene of the crimes and now Taiwan and China can argue about the proceedings from hereon. I do think the philippine goverment was in a no win situation here , if they had bowed down to Taiwan and deported them there then they would have been castigated by China for aiding and abetting Taiwan in harbouring criminals.
David, I have tried to be clear on this… maybe I have not been successful. Criminals are not deported to 3rd countries. If a crime was committed, that country should file for extradition (not deportation). Deportation should be to your country of citizenship. If the Chinese had filed for extradition, I would have no problem with accused criminals being deported to China. But, that did not happen here. Deportation is an immigration matter, not a matter of criminality. I can be deported for lots of reasons, but I have not been accused of any crime, so there is no grounds to extradite me. In effect, the Philippines extradited these men, even though no extradition had been sought.
Besides all of that, deportation is an “internal” issue, wholly within the purview of the Philippine Government. Extradition, on the other hand, is an “external” issue with purview shared between/among different countries.
I understand you clearly Bob, but note you are conveniently forgetting that the Philippine goverment does not regognize Taiwan as a seperate nation and classes it as a part of China , so they will not admit to deporting anybody to a 3rd country, this is your view , which i disagree with. The official line from the Philippine goverment regarding Taiwan is the same as most countries i believe. They however maintain a friendly unofficial welcome to Taiwan, which i guess if you have up 90.000 of your own working there makes common sense. I have read various reports where the Chinese wanted these people returned there , i dont know if these are official extradition requests , do you?.most of us only have our information through the presss or tv, and we all know how they report to create sensationlism to sell their product.
hi Bob
this is my last comment on this subject as its quite plain to see nobody really know whats gone on here, You mentioned in your post that if the Chinese has filed for extradition that you would not have a problem with the accused being deported to China. There are plenty of reports out there that suggest this happened, but like i already said who knows the real truth, anyway this is one report suggesting they did apply for extradition.
THE EXTRADITION DEBACLE
Apparently, pressure to extradite was strong from Chinese authorities, but the Filipino government should not have extradited nationals to a 3rd country, like the Peoples Republic of China, without trying to clear everything with the proper Taiwanese authorities. This kowtowing to Mainland China makes the Filipino government look weak at home–and abroad, it appears that the Filipino government is totally inept in terms of maintaining good trade and working relationships with its closest neighbor in the region, namely Taiwan.
David – If the Chinese had filed for extradition, then the Philippine government would have extradited the men. However, the Philippines did not extradite the men. The government clearly states that they deported the men. So, that shows that there was no extradition request.
Sorry for coming in late. So am I to understand that if a child were kidnapped from Taiwan by a non custodial parent to the Philippines then that child would be returned not to Taiwan but to main land China? So the custodial parent would somehow have to get admitted to China and hope to escape back to Taiwan with child?
I only bring this up because certain countries around the world are known as kidnap havens for non custodial parents. The country I am writing from, Costa Rica, is known as such. It has never to date honored the international treaty on returning kidnapped children, which it is a signatory to and has never returned a kidnapped child under the treaty.
That’s a good point, David. Thanks for bringing it up.
On the issue of deportation verses extradition, while it is true that deportation is an internal immigration matter and will almost always involve some internal crime, each country is free to write its own laws. It is common that one would be deported after serving some sentence for robbery for example even if that person were (before the crime, a legal resident). Most countries remove legal residency status following conviction of a serious crime. The issue of where to get deported to can get quite complicated. Some people are dual citizens. In some cases the citizenship is undetermined. In some cases the country of origin is different than citizenship. In some cases neither nationality nor country of origin can be determined. In the end many countries just send the deportee to where ever they can, to whom ever will accept them.
On extradition, the laws of each country and any international agreements/treaties come into play. However, as in the case of non custodial parents finding a haven in some countries, the courts play a big role sometimes. Costa Rica is also known around the world and to US expats as a fugitive haven. Let’s say you murdered your wife and you go to trial but it becomes obvious during the trial that things are not going to come out well for you. So you skip the country and flee to some place like Costa Rica. The country where you committed the crime continues with the trial and sentences you in absentia. When the extradition request comes in you file your appeal with the court in your fugitive haven and win because many countries including Costa Rica do not recognize a trial and conviction in absentia. Ok, so the Costa Rican court tells the expedition requesting country to simply promise to retry the person. But oh, wait there is a problem most countries of the world cannot try the same person twice for the same crime, so the extradition requesting country says we cannot agree to that.
Here’s another way to get around extradition. Many countries have a ridiculously low statue of limitations so even if you committed the crime and everyone knows you did it, you even admit to it, you cannot be tried and convicted after for example ten years even for murder. Costa Rica is one such country. Therefore any delay legal or otherwise which draws out the time to ten years or more would stop an extradition from such a country. Again, the fugitive would simply appeal to the supreme court of Costa Rica for example and stop the extradition using the argument that it is beyond the statute of limitations. These two loop holes are the most common that I’ve read about. And I’ve seen them employed quite successfully here in Costa Rica and most recently by a Colombian ex guerilla who is now living here.
I was doing some reading on Philippine immigration laws a few weeks ago, researching a topic that I had in mind. I found out that in the Philippines, for most crimes, or many, if you have been a resident of the Philippines for 5 years or more, you generally will not be deported after you have served your sentence for a crime committed. That’s not related to this case, but it is related to your comment, so I thought I’d mention it.
Bob
We’ve had Cubans that have been in this country for 20-40 years picked up by immigration from prison and held in detention for an unspecified period of time due them only being a legal permanant resident. Generally for approximately 6 months but sometimes alot longer. Since they can’t get deported to Cuba they are released on a type of probation. But if they get in trouble again they can be held indefinately or find another country that will accept them. All those Cubans that were released could be than detained in the future and removed to Cuba if we ever get an agreement with Cuba. Generally the crimes for removal are drug related and violent ones.
In 1980, there were about 125,000 Cubans released by Fidel mostly criminals, during the Mariel Boat Lift Crisis. I still get tired thinking about that operation, doing 16 hour shipboard days for several weeks. Whew! Those criminals are still in jail and I don’t know what they did with ones with mental problems.
Mars Z
I think quite a few of those Cubans from the Mariel Boat Lift were released. Our County here in Florida had a contract with ICE to hold there detainees and we had alot of criminal Cubans, some from the boatlift, that were eventually released. I also worked overtime for ICE as a Bailiff in there immigration courtrooms in our facility. I learned so much about the immigration process just by watching the hearings. 16 hour days is crazy, but you guys did a good job and it was greatly appreciated. Take care my friend!
Thanks, Randy.
I would say this was an act of provocation by the Pinoy gov. Rather unnecessary to say the least.
I think it was indeed a misstep.
I’m going back to the early several news reports that the supposedly Taiwanese nationals did not or cannot proved their nationalities via valid ID’s and/or Passport as the basis of the Prez himself saying to the Taiwanese government. Can anybody source these news reports?
Here is my question on that… if they had no passport, how was it decided to send them to China? I mean if they could not prove where they were from, why not send them to Korea, Myanmar, Thailand, Guam? It just makes no sense.
Bob,
I agree this is an issue to watch but you are speaking of “what ifs” . I do think that the Philippines should have sent them back to the country they originated from whether they recognize Taiwan as an independent country or not. I think apologizing is in order here. Why make a situation worse by not doing it.
Of course, John. I am looking at what happened, and extracting from that what could happen to other non-citizens here. 😉
Off topic i know as i dont know how to start a new topic, but lets pray that the 28.000 OFWs in Libya are evacuted safely. I believe full evacuations started friday night as Libya is on the brink of total destruction.
That would be nice if they all get out ok…strange ..read a lot of new of a lot of different countries workers getting out , but not 2 much on the Fillipinos…..good heavens must have been over 100,000 different workers there in Libya…..who knows..maybe the whole middle east go to pot and oil be $300.00 a barrel and bring on the camels.
Well the news is bleak already with a report coming through that 34 OFWs have been taken hostage by armed men. Maybe the Phil goverment should have moved a bit quicker on this situation. I feel for these OFWs and their familys back home as i dont think all will be returning, i pray im wrong…..Seems to me that the goverment moved to soon on the Taiwanese fraud suspects situation and could have had more discussions to try and find the best solution, but now on saving their own it looks like they dawdled to much…why?
Aquino mentioned it costs 13 million peso to hire a plane for 200/300 passengers…is it all down to money.
During the riots in Egypt a couple of weeks ago, when it seemed that every nation in the world was trying to get it’s citizens out (and having a hard time doing it), Feyma and I were surprised when we were watching the news and they said that the Philippine government has put out a statement that they were not going to try to get OFW’s out, because they didn’t consider the situation to be very dangerous. Feyma and I looked at each other, a bit baffled. I am not sure how much the government cares or worries about the OFW’s… they do worry about the money being sent back, though.
It’s so nice to know that there are a lot of bright minds in this LiP readership. No shortage of
political analysts, foreign policy experts, historians, students of international law and diplomacy, and, yes, armchair quarterbacks. I’m more of the armchair QB type than anything, what with having to rely solely, not on the Philippine news media which I hardly ever read, but on the LiP articles and subsequent readers’ comments to bring me up to date with current events in the Philippines.
With that being said, on this particular issue, I find readers’ exchanges on deportation vis-a-vis extradition enlightening. I also find interesting the speculations as to why the Philippine government did what it did, i.e., deporting the Taiwanese and the Chinese fugitives to mainland China rather than to Taiwan in an obvious disregard of the latter’s request and despite China’s non-request for extradition.
What I find baffling, though, are some of the readers’ comments that President Aquino acted without much thought or is mistaken in deporting the Taiwanese nationals to China, while entirely overlooking what, in my mind, is perhaps the most obvious explanation as to why he did what he did. There could never have been an easier decision to make for this president. I’m sure it played a part, but I don’t think it was entirely all about the Philippine government’s recognition of the international “One China” policy, nor do I think it is because of any of the historical or geo-political backgrounds that brought the Philippines, China, and Taiwan to the present time, but for a Philippine president who is trying to save the lives of Filipinos currently on China’s death row, the rationale behind deporting the fugitives to China was never complicated from the get-go. It was, in fact, a very easy decision to make, IMO.
Hi Ricardo
Interesting observation but Im not so sure if its correct. Are we talking about Filipinos currently on China’s death row for drug/criminal offences or political ….. I find it hard to accept that he would want to save drug offenders for example. Even the Australian goverment only makes a token effort to save their nationals in foreign countries sentenced to death for drug smuggling. They warn all would be drug smugglers that they cant do much to help them if they violate the laws of another country and must be prepared to pay the penalty if caught….I would hope our esteemed President is more concerned about saving the OFWs caught up in the civil war in Libya and as Bob mentioned also in Egypt he seemed a bit lax towards their plight….but perhaps im getting the wrong end of the stick, maybe your referring to people on death row for other reasons.
Yes, Aquino sent VP Binay to China a couple weeks ago to save 3 Filipino drug mules who were to be put to death.
Thats cool Bob….can send the vp..to china to save 3 drug mules…..but goverment not really to concerend about all the OFW’s in all these contries that are going nuts.I have not read one piece of news about the Fillipino goverment doing anything to bring their workers to saftey…..but have read about many other contries that have and are doing all they can to bring their people back home. I think that right there tells a pretty big story of what the People in the Phillipines have for a goverment….
I would have to agree, Dan.
I am referring to the 3 Filipinos on death row that were about to be executed on drug smuggling charges, David. I read somewhere that Binay was sent there to try and have the death sentences commuted, but came back empty handed. This was before the Libya situation worsened. In my mind, there is a direct correlation between the deportation and this administration’s attempt to save the Filipinos’ lives.
Actually, Binay was partially successful in his journey. The 3 Filipinos had their death sentences delayed, although it is now unsure when or if the death penalties will be applied.
Could this be one of those manifestations of Divine intervention as someone had suggested in another topic in referring to the near blood-bath between Marcos’ loyalists from the Ilocos and the rebel forces holed up in an army camp in Quezon City, Bob?
Ask Biz Doc about that one Ricardo – he has a hot line!
Sorry about that one -just could not resist it!
🙂
Appreciate what your saying Ricardo, but i just cant see Binay incurring the wrath of Taiwan and putting at risk the future of 90.000 OFWs and future trade, just to save the lives of 3 or more drug mules. Surely its more deeper then this. Im not saying a deal has not been done with China, but i doubt its to save drug mules from being executed, this can be done and has been already been done through negoitation.
I would do the same thing, David, if I were in Aquino’s shoes. Human lives, even only 3, unless the crime is particularly heinous, are more important than the possible loss of 90,000 jobs and future trade.
I guess it gets down to what you class as heinous Ricardo. I have known family sadness through drugs, so i and i would say millions of people all over the world consider drug mules to be the scum of the earth. They dont have any feelings or considerations to the many lives that are destroyed through the drugs they are carrying, but want everybody else to consider them when they are caught and put on death row. Australia does not have the death penalty but i know for sure we dont have a lot of sympathy for drug mules who are executed in other countries. Our goverment will make a plea to have it reduced to life in jail, but if they are satisfied the drug mule has been tried fairly they will respect the laws of that country and not have any diplomatic repercussions towards them.
An example of my definition of a heinous crime is the taking of one’s life indiscriminately. I understand well where you’re coming from, David, and am well aware of the negative collateral effects of drug smuggling to society as a whole, but I personally find the punishment much too harsh if China were to carry out the sentence. Life without parole would be more appropriate, but I just don’t see taking a person’s life as punishment for drug smuggling. Yet, some countries impose death as a deterrence.
Hey Ricardo, welcome back your cruise. Change of subject, what ports did you hit? and how did the rum differ from port to port?
Too short, Mars, but it’s OK, there’ll be others in the pipeline. We hit 5 ports altogether: St. Thomas, St. Croix, St. Kitts, Antigua, and St. Maarten. Beautiful, fantastic weather. Yeah, it would have been more appropriate if I had the local rum at each different port, which is afterall the specialty of the region, but, no, the rum I had was strictly shipboard issue. Sorry about the pina colada, I though that that was a bit effeminate of me to be holding a pina colada with the obligatory pineapple umbrella while walking around on deck. I did order for my wife the virgin pina colada at dinner though. She doesn’t drink alcohol.
i dont think 3 lives of a drug mule is more important than us here ofw in taiwan..that three drug mule,im sorry to say this here but they deserve whats best for them..they kill alot of young lives by selling those drugs and we are going to be sacrificed for them,we who are working like a carabao,we who are working clean..the three deserves to be hanged..
I couldn’t agree more… drug mules deserve whatever the punishment is.
I sympathize with you, Rienalyn. I appreciate the fact that you work very hard there in Taiwan in a job that is “clean”. You have every right to denounce the drug mules, and I agree with you that they deserve to be punished. I just don’t agree that they deserved to be put to death for a crime that did not involve the taking of other people’s lives, although, I must admit, that a collateral effect of drug smuggling could result in some people’s deaths down the road.
However, whether the drug mules are put to death or not, it has no relevance to the possibility that the 90,000 OFW jobs in Taiwan may be terminated. From what I am understanding in this article and readers’s comments, the OFW jobs in Taiwan are at risk only because the President of the Philippines refuses to apologize to the Taiwan government for deporting the Taiwanese nationals to China.
Hi Ricardo – Not sure how you can say that the crime did not involve the taking of other people’s lives. People who get hooked on drugs die every day. Young children might have been given the drugs and died or their lives ruined.
Bob, please note that I did admit that “that a collateral effect of drug smuggling could result in some people’s deaths down the road”. But for the actual drug smuggling that the Filipinos committed and are charged with, there were no deaths involved, right? The specific charge was drug smuggling, and if a country’s laws impose a death penalty on that particular charge, so be it. But you cannot punish them for what may happen in the future because of the crime they committed today.
I am sorry, Ricardo, but I totally disagree. Drug smugglers cause death daily. Yes, I feel that you can punish them, and should, for what happens due to their actions. Two grown men can disagree and still be friends, and I think that we have a very basic disagreement on this, because we see it exactly opposite from each other.
the dispute between taiwan and philippines is already affecting us now… our contract here is 2yrs + 1 yr. xtension…one of our taiwanese company production leader told some filipino that the company already received an email stating that there is no extension of contract to all filipinos that there 2 yrs contract will end..1 yr extension for us here is very big for us..it was a very big disappointment and we are very very sad if this is really true..my contract will end this june 17,and when i will be going home,its not happiness because i know the philippine government cannot provide us jobs like taiwan do..when we apply for work here,the placement fee ranges from 86,000-130,000 pesos..its hard for people like us to have that money but we manage to avail loans never minding the huge interest just to get here expecting that 2yr+1yr contract..but now many of us feared that we could no longer be extended..before during economic crisis i was also one those being sent home,for me that time i understands fully the situation but now its hard to accept it.we are collateral damage to a stupidity some people do..shame to some philippine officials claiming that they are not scared that we might loose our jobs here coz they are ready for us.they cant even provide jobs to those who are in the philippines..im sorry bob my topic could be not relevant but it was just my way of telling whats happening here.
Hi Bob! Your ending statements run like a homework in a history class, eh. Let me try speaking my mind on this sensitive subject. Hmm, I will go “nosebleed” here. (as Filipinos would refer to a difficulty communicating in English).
What do you think? – My first reaction was to be surprised. How I thought of something as a protocol was overlooked by the DFA. As I read the story over the internet, my surprise turned to feeling unpleasant.
Do you think the Philippines made an error in the original handling of the deportation? – I think there was mishandling of the deportation issue. The Philippines should have deported the Taiwanese to Taiwan, instead of China.
Should the Philippines have issued an apology to put the issue to rest? – An apology is an appropriate and most respectful thing to do. And I don’t think, it will diminish the respect of the international community towards the Philippines.
What will happen if those 90,000 Filipinos lose their jobs and are sent home? – As a repercussion of the Philippines’ unwillingness to issue an apology, Taiwan may opt to terminate the contracts of these 90K OWFs. Should it so happen, they will go back home and be added to the unemployed totals. Or Taiwan, may deport them to Kota Kinabalu or to East Timor, in retaliation, citing double standard policy Philippines. (Humor here!!!)
But things will be ironed out. The 2 countries need each other and these will depend on the economic policies and decisions that these countries will take later on.
God speed and mabuhay! – Alf
Hi Alf – Your feelings are strong! I feel much the same as you, but perhaps a bit less strong! I do hope that it works out between the two countries, though.
I doubt that Taiwan will force the departure of 90,000 Filipino OFW’s – I think that the worst that could happen will that Taiwanese companies will be discouraged from hiring more. As to the Presidents statement that he will appoint officials to place these workers elsewhere someone should appraise him of the fact that Philippine officials do not have the power to place OFW’s where they please -especially in these difficult economic times.You cannot run policy on wishful thinking.
They may or may not follow through, but that is what they threatened to do.
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Free flights for those deported? Not sure how this ties in with my article about deportation?
Spam perhaps?
Funny thing is, JC, it was posted by a friend… strange.
With all that i have read. Everyone here obviously allready knows China’s power in the Phils, both mixed with its politics and its economy. And im dont think any person here would dispute that unfortinetly YES, everything politically is based on money for the bottom line.
But im sure every single one of us has seen a situation in life.. (many many times most likely), that a person (or govt) of power has simply told the lesser powered what they wanted. Along the lines of “Its gonna happen, like it or not, so play nice, make me happy and just give me what i want. Dont make us do this the hard way… friend”
We all know none of us know or will ever know what things may have actually been said, asked for or even threatened amount leaders of countries.
So, me looking at all these coments and information.. i have gathered that Yes.. the crimes where commited in China… and it would have been reasonable for China to request extradition and get positive results on the request. Im sure we all would agree on that. And the Phil govt also knows that.
Im not sure if they China told them to behind closed doors, or not.. but either way, it seems that Aquino was very likely just doing things (that he knew was going to happen anyhow), in a timely fast action to keep the “big Gorilla neighbor” happy and satisfied, and with a dimplomatic guesture of “Look China.. we helping you also” to save the time, paperwork, etc… But mostly to keep the political and economic relations in good standing with China. I do not believe China needs the Phils that much, but the Phils do need China very badly at this moment in time.
Yes, maybe Aquino underestemated how upset Taiwan would get. Or he simply made a rational decision that he has much better leverage and it was much easier for him to make amends and deal with Taiwan being upset. And perhaps not much leverage or advantage at all for him to try to deal with China, if he made them mad.
I agree, perhaps to look stronger or more proffessional to outsiders or even his own citizens, perhaps he should have made them do the paperwork. But it is also most likely that Aquino just gained some huge points in his favor with China. That can benifit the Philippines for many years to come. (Although it is just as likely to be because it will fill certain officials pockets for years to come).
Either way.. i do not see a problem with what he did. All in all.. he basically “cut a little red tape” and did what was going to be the outcome anyhow. I wish our US govt and the Phils govt did alot more of the same. Stop spending millions and months to do paperwork, if we know what is supposed to happen. Just get it done. IMO
NOTE **(hehe.. i think maybe my current view may be reflective apon waiting 4 months to get my NSO copy of my marriage contract, now i can file our papers, and now be waiting another 6-9 months for my wifes spousal visa.. goal is still before Christmas this year) lol
Hi Craig – As you pointed out, we will never know everything that went behind the decision. All I know is that if I were ever deported, I would want to be sent to my homeland, not to China. Based on the actions of the Philippine government we can’t be too sure where we would end up.
I can only make an opinion based on my belief and not much more. I would have thought they should deport them back to Taiwan. I think that if you’re passport states that you are from say Taiwan that you do get sent back there.
That’s kind of what I think too, JC.
interesting to read your discussions.I was once in taiwan as an OFW.I am confused of all what u have said and so I tried to get my passport and read what is written in my visa when i was there and it is clearly written on the very top,,,,REPUBLIC OF CHINA,,,,that means taiwan is still a part of china……correct me if i am wrong……..
Hi gopa-ay – Taiwan is the “Republic of China,” that is the official name. China is the “People’s Republic of China”. Whether they are one and the same depends on who you ask. Personally, I view them and two different countries.
Freedom is fought for, and won. Not given.